1st stage of regulator failed in close position - new diver freaking out a bit :)

[david gutkin]

Great responses! Some of the engineers here really have made a convincing argument (to a novice like me) that it was a tank valve issue. I think the key fact that would help determine the issue is the slow regain of air pressure in the SPG. I agree that operation would say it was the regulator...grrrrr.

" A partly open valve will allow some gas to flow but at a reduced flow rate. Your reg acts as a small reservoir for your next breath. With a fully open valve, it fills very quickly and you will not see any lose of supply pressure on the SPG and a next breath is immediately available. Even IP normally only drops 10 to 20 %. But if the valve is only open a bit, eventually the reservoer (I can not spell) will not recover fast enough for a full breath. Your response will naturally be to quickly try again. Since the gas is just trickling into the reservore, you will get little to nothing. It will feel like nothing. When you stop trying to draw a breath, the reservore will slowly refill, your SPG will climb and you can probably get another breath and empty the reservior again. "

.....Yes! This makes sense and is exactly what it felt like. Though, I was able to safety stop and inflate my BCD vest on my own air once I rechecked the SPG at around 5m. Makes me think that it was lack of ambient pressure on the tank valve mechanism.

I have always been grateful when it was just myself and a couple others on a dive. Thankfully, this dive had 8 people --that's a lot of oct's dangling around! My buddy was just a few feet from my right, but just out of reach and hooked-in while facing into a strong current. If I unhooked to grab her, I would have been blown backwards and up. I don't think I would have had the air to crawl along the rock to grab her. Her eyes were focused on the camera lens (some great pics of grey reef sharks btw). The woman to my right side was having trouble with her reef hook so the dive master was next to her helping --this allowed me to reach into his right pocket and just grab his oct. My lungs were just starting to heat up!

****Not losing your #$&% was key here. Cannot thank my dive instructor enough who turned off my tank multiple times to get me used to not panicking. Though, I need a straightforward answer to what to do next time. It sounds like If buddy is not 1-2 kicks away; at >20m, pull weights and try to exhale remaining air with regulator in mouth. And at <20m, controlled ascent. I guess I am looking for a rough cut off: at what depth do u do a controlled ascent vs emergency buoyant ascent. Or is the answer that a recreational depth almost always do controlled ascent with one hand on weight pocket. I want this to be a learned reflex, not something I ponder should it occur again*****

1) glad I lived and learned!
2) will be sure to check my own tank valve and open it completely; though, not forcefully (just in case that was the issue....good practice either way)
3) reviewing all safety rules and will be more vigilant from now on. Was just getting to that point of over confidence!
4) Be within a couple kicks of a buddy.

 

[KevinNM]

So to shift a little bit, but it was mentioned by the OP, what's the rule for flying with pony bottles? Valve completely off? Tank empty? Maybe drained to 100 psi and stuffed in my checked baggage?

Valve removed. I always use the plastic shipping plug, but in theory you should have nothing in the neck. Clear packing tape is another option. You can carry on or check it. And yes, the dive op may make you get a visual inspection before they fill it. Or maybe not.

 

[tursiops]

Great responses! Some of the engineers here really have made a convincing argument (to a novice like me) that it was a tank valve issue. I think the key fact that would help determine the issue is the slow regain of air pressure in the SPG. I agree that operation would say it was the regulator...grrrrr.

I have always been grateful when it was just myself and a couple others on a dive. Thankfully, this dive had 8 people --that's a lot of oct's dangling around! My buddy was just a few feet from my right, but just out of reach and hooked-in while facing into a strong current. If I unhooked to grab her, I would have been blown backwards and up. I don't think I would have had the air to crawl along the rock to grab her. Her eyes were focused on the camera lens (some great pics of grey reef sharks btw). The woman to my right side was having trouble with her reef hook so the dive master was next to her helping --this allowed me to reach into his right pocket and just grab his oct. My lungs were just starting to heat up!

****Not losing your #$&% was key here. Cannot thank my dive instructor enough who turned off my tank multiple times to get me used to not panicking. Though, I need a straightforward answer to what to do next time. It sounds like If buddy is not 1-2 kicks away; at >15m, pull weights and try to exhale remaining air with regulator in mouth. I guess I am looking for a rough cut off: at what depth do u do a controlled ascent vs emergency buoyant ascent. I want this to be a learned reflex, not something I ponder should it occur again*****

1) glad I lived and learned!
2) will be sure to check my own tank valve and open it completely; though, not forcefully (just in case that was the issue....good practice either way)
3) reviewing all safety rules and will be more vigilant from now on. Was just getting to that point of over confidence!
4) Be within a couple kicks of a buddy.

I really do have to question your reading and comprehension skills. Explicitly:
1) your goal is not to exhale your air while going to the surface; rather, your goal is to not close off your lungs -- hold your breathe -- while ascending. The humming/exhaling/screaming is simply to ensure you are not holding your breath.
2) turning your valve on (all the way is good) is NOT enough. You must also do a breath and watch-the-SPG functionality test. If you need to have this demonstrated, fine, do it.

 

[david gutkin]

I really do have to question your reading and comprehension skills. Explicitly:
1) your goal is not to exhale your air while going to the surface; rather, your goal is to not close off your lungs -- hold your breathe -- while ascending. The humming/exhaling/screaming is simply to ensure you are not holding your breath.
2) turning your valve on (all the way is good) is NOT enough. You must also do a breath and watch-the-SPG functionality test. If you need to have this demonstrated, fine, do it.

My 'reading and comprehension skills'? Nice ! Though, in all seriousness, I do appreciate your feedback. To answer...

1) humming/screaming/saying, "ahhhhh" all involve gentle and controlled exhaling. This is how sound is generated --air passes from the lungs via the pharynx and into the mouth. You cannot generate sound without releasing air from the lungs to travel through the vocal cords. But roger that, holding breath = air embolism = stroke / badness.

2) roger that. Valve on AND air pull with eyes on SPG. Not a sure fire way of determining a problem, but air pull on SPG cannot hurt and may help sometimes.

 

[mainedvr]

I did not read all the post so maybe this was said what about something in the tank like a speck of rust, that could block the orifice and then move. Just an idea and again may have already been pointed out. Glad your ok

 

[tursiops]

My reading comprehension? nice! Though, I do appreciate your feedback on my experience. To answer...

1) humming/screaming/saying, "ahhhhh" all involve gentle and controlled exhaling. This is how sound is generated as air passes from the lungs via the pharynx. But roger that, holding breath = air embolism = stroke / badness.

2) roger that. Valve on AND air pull with eyes on SPG. Not a sure fire way of determining a problem, but air pull on SPG cannot hurt and may help sometimes.

Ok, but please note the goal is not to exhale, in that exhaling implies the goal is to empty the lungs. Rather, the goal is to not hold your breath, i.e. close off the lungs. It is perfectly ok for your lungs to still have gas in them when you surface. Exhaling to empty the lungs will work, but is not necessary, and might exacerbate the need to breath....which is one reason you keep your reg in your mouth.

 

[david gutkin]

Ok, but please note the goal is not to exhale, in that exhaling implies the goal is to empty the lungs. Rather, the goal is to not hold your breath, i.e. close off the lungs. It is perfectly ok for your lungs to still have gas in them when you surface. Exhaling to empty the lungs will work, but is not necessary, and might exacerbate the need to breath....which is one reason you keep your reg in your mouth.

Good clarification ---so glad to be alive today!

 

[runsongas]

He did say it was an AquaLung. Some AL regs does have ACD, right? So, there is a reasonable chance that it did have ACD?

If so, it seems somewhat suspect for all the posts that offer speculation and don't include that possibility. Of course, I suppose it's all speculation and we'll never know for sure. But, given the other info about the dive op acting as if they weren't surprised and immediately telling him it was the reg, it sure makes me wonder if it wasn't an ACD reg and that's how the dive op people seemed to know right away that it was the reg. Then again, I suppose it COULD be conspiracy on the part of the dive op staff to blame the reg in order to deflect blame from them for actually having a tank with trash in it that clogged the dip tube or a defective valve that didn't open all the way.

the titan and calypso don't, which are the two regs you mostly see in rental fleets.

 

[Dan]

What's the purpose of ACD (automatic closure device?) anyway? It seems to cause more problems.

 

[2airishuman]

For what it's worth and because I can't breath underwater and us humans are highly susceptible to making errors, my tank valves all have vindicator knobs. I've read too many stories of DM's turning people's valves or divers themselves not opening the valve. Hell, I saw it happen this year. Diver splashed right in, turned around and asked me to turn his tank on. I like given ole' Murphy and unfair disadvantage.

I practice operating the cylinder valves while in the water. Most people can do it, but you have to learn to hold your elbow up by your ear rather than in the more intuitive position far out to your right side. Some people have to cultivate additional shoulder flexibility. Some people have to shove the cylinder up with their left hand. The time to run these experiments is, of course, not after a negative entry with the air off.

If you can easily manipulate the valve in the water, a vindicator knob no longer solves any problem you actually have, and you can be all smiles and friendliness with the DM on the boat who fiddles with your cylinder valve, because you just don't care.

So to shift a little bit, but it was mentioned by the OP, what's the rule for flying with pony bottles? Valve completely off? Tank empty? Maybe drained to 100 psi and stuffed in my checked baggage?

The TSA requires the valve to be removed and the cylinder open, though many people report being able to get away with covering the opening with tape to keep debris out. If you ship them via a parcel delivery service, you can leave the valve in place but they have to be empty, which is widely considered to be 40 PSI or less.

DOT regulations are empty, valve off the tank

That's the TSA. The DOT just wants them empty.

What's the purpose of ACD (automatic closure device?) anyway? It seems to cause more problems.

The purpose of the ACD is to prevent water from entering the regulator in the common situation where a diver fails to install a dust cap after removing the reg from the cylinder valve. Whether or not the ACD can fail shut during a dive is disputed. I've never seen one or seen a detailed drawing of one so I can't comment from personal experience.