10 yr old Wreck Diver

[AquaExplorer]

If you believe that quote to the extent that you would be willing to speak it, face-to-face, to a grieving mother... then fair enough.

Otherwise, don't say it.

Actually I would...but of course you went and pulled the emotional card, and the Queen of them all, the mother card. Sorry but most mom's nowadays WOULD bubble-wrap their kids to keep them "safe".

Sorry but the safety-****'s have taken over and I am one that simply refuses to be taken to the extreme's of their logic.

I ride, and ride as safe as I deem, though others may say I am not safe enough. I fly an small airplane, and am rather safety conscious, but some say that simply flying the thing makes me unsafe, I recently did my first cave crawl (non-diving) and had a blast, and some say I was being "unsafe" by simply doing it.

So where does one draw the line to say that something is "safe enough" and willing to accept the risk? I believe, truly, that this dive was not the OMG-you-are-going-to-kill-your-son moment that some others do.

While a bit off topic I still find Mike Rowe's safety-rant to be one of the best I have heard, ever:

You Ask, He Answers: Mike Rowe's World: Discovery Channel

 

[BDSC]

it's your kid, you do what you want........

I know this is taken out of context to the overall tone of your post, BUT.....

Parents cannot do "what they want" with their kids. If they could, we would have legalised child abuse, child prostituion, child labor....and.....

...irresponsible parents generally exposing children to unaccaptable risks.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think your response to diver 85 was at all what he had in mind when he made his statement.

 

[captain]

Actually I would...but of course you went and pulled the emotional card, and the Queen of them all, the mother card. Sorry but most mom's nowadays WOULD bubble-wrap their kids to keep them "safe".

Sorry but the safety-****'s have taken over and I am one that simply refuses to be taken to the extreme's of their logic.

I ride, and ride as safe as I deem, though others may say I am not safe enough. I fly an small airplane, and am rather safety conscious, but some say that simply flying the thing makes me unsafe, I recently did my first cave crawl (non-diving) and had a blast, and some say I was being "unsafe" by simply doing it.

So where does one draw the line to say that something is "safe enough" and willing to accept the risk? I believe, truly, that this dive was not the OMG-you-are-going-to-kill-your-son moment that some others do.

While a bit off topic I still find Mike Rowe's safety-rant to be one of the best I have heard, ever:

You Ask, He Answers: Mike Rowe's World: Discovery Channel

Thanks for the link, what Mike said couldn't be more true.

 

[Mr.X]

I guess some here would FREAK to know that 10-year old's pilot airplanes too. Yup...we have a pilot/owner/instructor that lets his 10-year old fly, supervised of course.

Life is to be LIVED, not wrapped in bubble-wrapped and sterilized and made "safe" to the point that one is living a facsimile of the real thing.

I don't think anyone is saying that. My point is that there are boundaries related to kids pushing the envelope and the fact that they are not entirely aware of what's taking place around them. So, I see no point in pushing beyond standards set for kids by their respective agencies.

A tidbit: Child and teen brains are VERY different than adult brains. The decision-making parts of the brain are not developed.

Last point - the youngest pilot decided to off herself. Again, pushing the envelope too early doesn't often bode well for kids as they turn into adults.

Obituary: Vicki Van Meter / An acclaimed pilot by age 11, she kills herself at 26

X

 

[Blazinator]

While a bit off topic I still find Mike Rowe's safety-rant to be one of the best I have heard, ever:

You Ask, He Answers: Mike Rowe's World: Discovery Channel

OMG what a great statement Mike Rowe wrote !!!!

Here's just a snippet of his response to safety conscious mother that pulled the "You could lose an eye!" phrase we've all heard, but you HAVE to read the whole thing:

"I realize that may sound controversial but it's the truth and not nearly as inflammatory as what I'm going to say next.

Ready?

Of all the platitudes automatically embraced in the workplace — and there are many — there is none more pervasive, erroneous, overused and dangerous than "Safety First!" in my opinion. I have heard this slogan countless times. I have seen it emblazoned on banners, T-shirts and hats. I have sat through mandatory briefings, slideshows and presentations designed to "protect me from the hazards at hand." And I have listened as safety officers and foremen have run down list after list of OSHA requirements, all apparently construed to remind me that nothing is more important to the employer than my own well-being.
What a load of unmitigated nonsense.
In the 120+ jobs I have seen thus far, I can tell you with certainty, that safety, while always a major consideration, is never the priority.
Never.
Never, ever.
Not even once.
Is it important? Of course. But is it more important than getting the job done? No. Not even close. Making money is more important than safety — always — and it's very dangerous, in my opinion, to ignore that. When we start to believe that someone else is more concerned about our own safety than we are, we become complacent and then we get careless. When a business tells you that they are more concerned with your safety than anything else, beware. They are not being honest. They are hedging their own bets and following the advice of lawyers hired to protect them from lawsuits arising from accidents.

When are we too reckless? When are we overly cautious? Opinions will vary about where safety should rank on society's list of desirable conditions. But one thing seems certain — safety has never been first, at home or at work. And the current effort to make it so is way out of balance.
And that, ironically, is dangerous.
Mike

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think your response to diver 85 was at all what he had in mind when he made his statement.

Yep...I did say I had used the quote out of context. I just wanted to use diver85's words as a springboard to make a futher point....

No offence meant whatsoever to diver85 :blinking:

 

[captain]

Hey "Captain", (if you are still following this thread) I have a question for you.

How in the hell did you live through teaching yourself to dive? I read your profile and you say you taught yourself back in 1957 I think it was. Man, do you realize you are a miracle walking? Do you know just how many times you cheated death? Did you not realize that every time you entered the water your life was hanging by a thread?

Maybe you just made your profile up. I mean it's just beyond me that a person could possibly teach themselves to dive. Don't you know that you can't safely learn to dive unless you take course after course after course and follow/abide by every single rule/protocol/measure/recommendation/thought or idea that is taught by every single agency that is out there now?

Too bad the writers of the Marvel Comic books didn't meet you years ago. Had they learned of your feat, you may very well have become a Superhero!

Every bit of my profile is accurate.

Recreational diving is a simple endeavor with a few basic rules.
Never hold your breath while ascending.
Never exceed no D limits
Monitor your air supply
Use common sense

Those four rule have kept me alive and accident free for 50+ years.

 

[DevonDiver]

To expand and illustrate on my earlier post....

Ignorance (of risk) is a product of inexperience.

A quick skim of this thread shows a discernable trend....

Logged Dives 0-25 = Strong belief that the dive industry is over-regulated for safety

A quick skim across the site in general shows another discernable trend....

A call by experienced divers/instructors to strengthen the safety regulations of the industry, to increase the duration and scope of training courses, to increase the dive experience pre-requisite for certain training courses, to clamp down on wild-card instructors, agency standards not strict enough etc etc

The self-proclaimed 'IT Uber Geek', Mr Psycocabbage talks a great deal about 'risk taking'.... and yet, I fail to understand what sort of risks he takes...that would lead him to understand the statements he makes. I looked at his personal site... I just see (as he says), an IT Geek that plays with guns, drives a big truck and has a few hours experience on undemanding recreational dives. Hardly a solid platform of experience, from which to preach delimitation of safety regulations?

I might not be invited to "hang with his crew", but that's a good thing, because I'd probably want kill myself out of sheer boredom. My experience of guns...always included people shooting back. My experience of diving...always means a careless mistake is the end of it all.

Perhaps, the underlying basis behind the advocates demanding less safety regulation...is the simple fact that their lives are tedious and offers little in the way of risk. Therefore, they seek risk in order to compensate. Egos need to be swelled, testosterone needs to be pumped, manhood needs to be validated.

In contrast, my life has presented me with more than enough close calls and bad experiences. Consequently, I am pretty risk adverse.

Having dragged a drowned man out of the water....and seen the aftermath of another man's demise inside a silted shipwreck (I can only imagine his desperate terror, when in zero viz, he attempted to claw his way through a metal bulkhead)... I have absolutely no intention...ever.... of being in that situation myself. And yet...the risk factor of the diving I undertake far exceeds that of the "we are free to do what the hell we want" advocates on this thread. The subtle difference is that I conduct those dives with an enormous respect for the dangers and with every concievable effort (training, education, conduct) to maximise whatever safety I can secure.

I do not intend this as an insult to anyone.... I am merely trying to find a reason behind this trend of inexperienced divers who seem to be utilising the hobby of scuba diving as a way to satisfy a risk addiction.

 

[BDSC]

Every bit of my profile is accurate.

Recreational diving is a simple endeavor with a few basic rules.
Never hold your breath while ascending.
Never exceed no D limits
Monitor your air supply
Use common sense

Those four rule have kept me alive and accident free for 50+ years.

Thanks Captain! I couldn't agree with you more! It's not rocket science by any means.

 

[DevonDiver]

Every bit of my profile is accurate.

Recreational diving is a simple endeavor with a few basic rules.
Never hold your breath while ascending.
Never exceed no D limits
Monitor your air supply
Use common sense

Those four rule have kept me alive and accident free for 50+ years.

Good post!

That forth rule is pretty all encompassing!

Common sense is great... but it does rely somewhat on having an understanding of potential dangers, pitfalls and hazards facing us.

Common sense says...if we see a wild tiger in the jungle...run away. It says, don't walk blindfolded across a busy freeway.

We understand the obvious danger...and common sense is the intellectual process of carrying out an instinctive risk assessment.

One of the problems with diving... is that the risks are not necessarily as obvious and can therefore elude our intellectual risk assesment process.

You state common sense as rule 4...but felt the need to specify specifically the first 3 rules (NDLs, Air and Breath Hold Ascent). Why did you need to do that?

You did that because these 3 risks are not 'immediately apparant'.

Our fight or flight instincts will not be triggered by the act of entering, unknowingly into deco. The hairs on the back of our necks will not mysteriously rise if our SPG needle, unwatched, slips down to zero.... and we are not born into this world with any genetically inherated knowledge of how Boyle's Law pertains to ascent on scuba......

People need education on these risks.... and then they can guard against them.

The same is true with a multitude of other risks inherent in certain scuba activities.

Unless adequately trained.... people are just plain ignorant of the risks inherent with wreck diving. After all.... it might look safe. It might seem safe. It might appear easy. Education and training are required to set that balance straight.

...and then divers can apply their common sense....and make their decisions on the risks they choose to take.