1 in 14 Cave divers die???????

[Meng_Tze]

For years we used to say cave fatalities were due to untrained cave divers entering a system,but that doesn't apply as much. We are seeing a trend toward trained cave diving deaths and some of those fall into two categories-medical related or exceeding experience level. I would say 1 in 14 easily too much. But,if you do the sport long enough you'll lose friends,and I've lost a few.

What also counts here I think is. Less untrained divers go into caves nowadays (maybe increased awareness of the dangers, the STOP signs etc) so it now looks that more and more accidents are to do with trained cave divers. But maybe in actuality the ratio of trained vs. non trained has shifted, so that percentage wise it now seems that more trained cavers are getting hurt?

Bottom line is, you are FAR more likely to get hurt doing something dangerous if you are unaware of the dangers, of how to fix/handle situations etc. than when you are trained. This of course leaves out the 'Force Majeur' (acts of God). Since when your time is up, its up. It does not matter where you are, in bed or in a cave.

I would be interested to see how many accidents do happen without accounting for 'Force Majeur'.........trained vs non trained.... I think that would be a fair comparison.

 

[devolution365]

Here's a quote from an article on cavedivers.com:

"Since 1960, over 500 divers have died in caves in Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean which averages out to around 11 deaths per annum, although one would suspect that many more occurred in the early days of the sport before good training and equipment advances were established. As the denominator is not known, a percentage risk cannot be given."


-That's the biggest problem with trying to find a mortality rate for cave diving. Unless all cave dives are logged, no one will ever be able to say what the mortality rate is. One website says there are over 25,000 divers currently certified for cave diving. -I'm no satistics whiz, but 500 deaths since 1960 divided by 25,000 certified cave divers is 0.02% chance of death. Consider many people diving in caves (and dying in caves) aren't certified, and the chances get lower and lower (especially if you ARE certified)...

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Good article on cave diving deaths:
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s040630/s040630.html
It says that it used to be that most deaths were caused by lack of training, that most of the deceased were not certified to dive in caves. Recently, however, they note an increase in certified and veteran cave diver deaths, which they attribute to complacency.

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For those who like numbers, pie charts, and the like:
Old data gathered from Florida death certificates (1960's, before there were specific certifications for cave diving, but): http://www.safecavediving.com/history/seminar01/figure2.jpg
(The rest of the article, with more charts is here)

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Summary:
I have caved a few times on land and I know just how disorienting it can be. I also know that I don't have enough scuba experience to attempt diving in an overhead environment at this time. I've read about the training one goes through for cave diving, and if ALL of the proceedures are followed, all of the equipment had (including a buddy!), and you are comfortable in the environment (don't push your limits!) research shows that the sport can be pretty safe. -In the end, it's up to each person as an individual to decide whether or not they take the risk.

 

[RonFrank]

are incorrect

For those who say that there is only ONE death that can not be attributed to NOT following the rules, one must than ask, how many rules are there, who's rules is one following, and do you add a new rule upon a death?

I don't cave dive, and have no interest in learning. My perception is that one must Always follow some basic rules in scuba, or death can result. However mistakes are going to get made. So the question becomes, how many mistakes can one make before the diving becomes deadly?

With cave diving, the answer is sometimes ZERO. The fact that some of the world's most renown and respected cave divers have died in caves (and more than just a couple) indicates that even with proper training, certification, and experinece, this is a dangerous activity, and the chances of dying while diving are MUCH greater vs. most other forms of non-overhead diving.

 

[pdoege]

how many rules are there, who's rules is one following, and do you add a new rule upon a death?

5 rules, established by Sheck Exley in "Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival"

Training - Have the training necessary to do the dive
Guideline - Always have a continuous guideline to the surface
Air - Always reserve 2/3rds of your gas supply for emergencies
Depth - Obey depth limits imposed by gasses, deco, training, etc.
Light - Always have at least 2 backup sources of light

I believe that the NSS-CDS has a rule prohibiting solo cave diving.

New rules are not added after every death. These rules cover most of the deaths that I am aware of. The only exceptions are acute medical conditions and, very rarely, collapse of the cave.

For more info you can search for TGADL.

For accident info you can go to http://www.iucrr.org

Peter

 

[WetDawg]

5 rules, established by Sheck Exley in "Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival"

Training - Have the training necessary to do the dive
Guideline - Always have a continuous guideline to the surface
Air - Always reserve 2/3rds of your gas supply for emergencies
Depth - Obey depth limits imposed by gasses, deco, training, etc.
Light - Always have at least 2 backup sources of light

I believe that the NSS-CDS has a rule prohibiting solo cave diving.

New rules are not added after every death. These rules cover most of the deaths that I am aware of. The only exceptions are acute medical conditions and, very rarely, collapse of the cave.

For more info you can search for TGADL.

For accident info you can go to http://www.iucrr.org

Peter

Didn't Sheck Exley, the guy who wrote the blueprint for survival, himself die while attemping to break his own deep cave record at something close to 1000 ft while solo?

 

[Dive-aholic]

are incorrect

For those who say that there is only ONE death that can not be attributed to NOT following the rules, one must than ask, how many rules are there, who's rules is one following, and do you add a new rule upon a death?

I don't cave dive, and have no interest in learning. My perception is that one must Always follow some basic rules in scuba, or death can result. However mistakes are going to get made. So the question becomes, how many mistakes can one make before the diving becomes deadly?

With cave diving, the answer is sometimes ZERO. The fact that some of the world's most renown and respected cave divers have died in caves (and more than just a couple) indicates that even with proper training, certification, and experinece, this is a dangerous activity, and the chances of dying while diving are MUCH greater vs. most other forms of non-overhead diving.

I was referring to the rules pdoege already posted. pdoege covers it quite well. Those are the rules. They have been since the 70s. They've been slightly revised since, but the basics are the same. Instead of lights, it's equipment now, for example.

By the way, does your statistic of "85% statistics are incorrect" fall into the 85% or the 15% side?

 

[JeffG]

Didn't Sheck Exley, the guy who wrote the blueprint for survival, himself die while attemping to break his own deep cave record at something close to 1000 ft while solo?

Yes

 

[pants!]

Didn't Sheck Exley, the guy who wrote the blueprint for survival, himself die while attemping to break his own deep cave record at something close to 1000 ft while solo?

Which of those 5 did he violate?

 

[Dive-aholic]

Didn't Sheck Exley, the guy who wrote the blueprint for survival, himself die while attemping to break his own deep cave record at something close to 1000 ft while solo?

Like Jeff said, yes. And he broke one of his own rules in so doing - the depth rule. But he also had 1000s of cave dives and was always breaking records, so he was allowed to break the rules. After all, he came up with them.

He also did a deep dive in which his watch imploded and he had to count the seconds to complete his deco stops until he could get to his other watch which was tied off at around 400'. How many people can do that?

Was he right in breaking the rules? That's a tough one. I have a lot of respect for him, so I can't help but be biased. He was always testing the limits, though.

 

[JeffG]

Like Jeff said, yes. And he broke one of his own rules in so doing - the depth rule. But he also had 1000s of cave dives and was always breaking records, so he was allowed to break the rules. After all, he came up with them.

He also did a deep dive in which his watch imploded and he had to count the seconds to complete his deco stops until he could get to his other watch which was tied off at around 400'. How many people can do that?

Was he right in breaking the rules? That's a tough one. I have a lot of respect for him, so I can't help but be biased. He was always testing the limits, though.

Depth rule??? If anything, it would of been the AIR rule IIRC.