0 to Full Cave in 150 dives?

[Germie]

I voted depends on the diver.

I see divers who start diving and know that they want to become a technical diver and they also are naturals in diving AND (also most important) want to train and improve.
On the other hand I also see divers who want to become a technical diver, but don't have te skills, don't want to practise, etc. This divers cannot be a full cave diver in 150 dives.

This discussion also remembers me about the discussion if it is possible to become full cave in 1.5 year from starting diving. Also this depends on the diver.

Looking back at my own path, I directly knew during my open water that a twinset was my way. I liked going in dark and deeper waters. So I asked my ow instructor to take me on the last dive to the maximum depth of my cert. The water is then 4 degrees, completely dark and it was my first time diving with gloves and a hood. Nothing to see, just going down folling a line, but I liked it.
Then was my question: I want to do technical diving, what is the way to do this? Just a normal question of a diver I also have to answer as instructor. The answer was: go diving, get experience. My next question was: how much experience? No answer, just go get experience.
I bought a normal recreational bcd, just because people said: you don't have enough experience to start technical diving. Never was the question answered about how much experience I needed.
I became member of a club to get my 2* because I decided to do icediving in winter. Also in the club they said I was not experienced enough for 2*. But I had already 26 dives and had done tidal dives and deep dives and nightdives without instructor as there was nobody. And the required amount of dives for cmas was 20. So I was experienced enough. They just said it because they could not offer me an instructor to do the dives officially as a course dive. But also complaigned about my own autodidactial dives.
I did my padi aow then. My first dive was 1 august, we talk now about half november and I had 55 dives. Still no answer about technical diving. I bought a drysuit and learned myself drysuit diving as there was again no instructor available on the day I bought that suit. I had to wait 2 weeks, that is too long if you buy such a thing. So I learned it myself. Not hard.
Then on dive 75 I did my first icedive.
And I decided to sign up for 3*/dm. That was also a long way to finish as again no instructors in the club, so I paid an instructor to teach me it. And then I had 200 dives, decided to by a twinset. For tdi 100 dives are needed to do the 100m course, so I found myself experienced enough to start technical diving.
On 1 april I finished my ART course. On 16 april I finished my 'zero to hero' 1 week cavern-full cave course. 18 months after my open water cert. Certifying dive was dive no. 390. In october I was full trimix diver and did my first 100m dive, dive no. 521.
So in 2 years a diver can be from open water to certified as full cave and full tx. I just want to be in the water as much as possible. I did not finish my full cave course in 150 dives. But in 18 months. From ART to full trimix took 6 months. The main reason here is because we don't have deep waters.
My diving was always motivated to become a technical diver. And I am a little bit a natural also. I am also partly an autodidact. I watched movies, tried to practise the finkicks, then took a selfievideo, watched it till it looks like on the videos on youtube. I read a lot about diving have over 300 different books about diving in a lot of languages from animals, technical diving, saturation diving, rebreathers, to instrutor manuals.

So yes I strongly believe in the depends on the diver. I am also pro cavern-intro-full cave in once courses. The reason is here: with cavern you can do nothing. With intro, most divers around me go within 5 dives over their limits, so it is better to teach all in once for most divers.

Of course I have to tell people they are not ready for things. And I do. I also advice sometimes a person not to go further than intro to cave. But normally I prefer to teach people who are confident, experienced divers when they start cavediving. I also want that people already have their adv. nitrox before moving into cave. When they do it with me, I know how they are in the water. If a new diver comes, we do a dive to see if the skills are ok to start cavediving. And the trim and bouyancy must be on the full cave level.

I teached last year a 2* diver and if that diver comes to me to become a cavediver I will say no. He is safe enough in open water on that level, but he has not the awareness, trim, bouyancy, etc to start cavediving. Of course a diver can become better in time I don't see him, and yes, I have to dive with him again to really say yes or no (I don't judge based on earlier experience with someone), but from what I saw then it is a no.

I also teached an open water course and that diver has now about 40 dives and already a twinset. If he asks me to train him as a cave diver, we could start with advanced nitrox. He is a fast learner and wants to learn the skills I have. So even if we are not in a cave yet, we can train towards cavediving. He knows that.

If a diver comes to me with the question about experience, I answer most times this: it is a difficult answer. You have guidelines from agencies with minimum amounts of dives. But there is also a personal thing, natural, willing to learn, etc. But if you really want, start practising basic skills in open water.

Sorry for the long answer as there is no short answer on this question

 

[grantctobin]

I totally agree with this. Scuba is very low risk compared to hobbies such as motorcycling where a 1 second mistake can mean death or serious injury.

Funnily enough the most at risk group for both riding and diving are middle aged men.

I do find that divers tend to be a bit rigid in their thinking sometimes and can blow perceived risk way out of proportion. I see this a lot of the time on the industry i work in and occasionally the risk mitigation strategy becomes more of a hazard than the original hazard. This is because of the dogmatic way that health and safety guidelines are applied by those without the creativity and intelligence to think of a more effective solution.

Are you a trained cave diver?

 

[Hartattack]

What is an Academic Diving program ? Is this like an elective at College?

With my program at Nova Southeastern University, think of it as a Minor in Recreational Scuba—not just a class. E.g. my open water class was a full semester, my DM was over an academic year with internship.

 

[Manatee Diver]

So yes I strongly believe in the depends on the diver. I am also pro cavern-intro-full cave in once courses. The reason is here: with cavern you can do nothing. With intro, most divers around me go within 5 dives over their limits, so it is better to teach all in once for most divers.

Strange because the attitude is the exact opposite here. And I personally stayed within my limits, though you do see people violate them, particularly the gas limits. Though I think that violates the trust that an instructor places in their student when they give them the Cave 1/App/Intro cert. I view the initial cave cert as a learners permit, letting you get some real world diving experience before you move onto the final exam.

 

[rjack321]

I totally agree with this. Scuba is very low risk compared to hobbies such as motorcycling where a 1 second mistake can mean death or serious injury.

Funnily enough the most at risk group for both riding and diving are middle aged men.

I do find that divers tend to be a bit rigid in their thinking sometimes and can blow perceived risk way out of proportion. I see this a lot of the time on the industry i work in and occasionally the risk mitigation strategy becomes more of a hazard than the original hazard. This is because of the dogmatic way that health and safety guidelines are applied by those without the creativity and intelligence to think of a more effective solution.

Well the state of FL wants to close access to some particularly "deadly" caves almost every time someone dies there. They never try to close golf courses or hiking trails, a lake, or the ocean when there's a fatalities or drownings in those places. Yes its dogmatic, but we're stuck with working with that.

 

[KevinNM]

Mountaineering is more dangerous than cave diving??

High level mountaineering, yes. K2 has a 25% fatality rate. A team of 3 very experienced climbers vanished last month and are presumed dead. Hardly the first and won’t be the last.

 

[lermontov]

Can someone do a ' zero to hero' course or achieve full cave with 150 dives?

Exploits in 'extreme' sports 40 year ago are now passe' and with the advent of Utube, tik tok, social media etc it seems everyone wants to do the next outrageous death defying stunt. To convince someone, particularly young people to invest the time and financial commitment in an apprenticeship to achieve diving mastery is an expectation from a previous generation and will not appeal to the masses today.

Whether you like it or not breaking the craft down into short term achievable segments and giving people 'cert card' rewards has probably kept the industry alive and in step with current consumerism, if the dive industry doesnt adapt it will die a slow death, or just become a smaller circle with its dedicated adherents.

Scuba diving has had its time of a perceived 'edgy' sport, nowadays it just cant compete with people throwing a MTB on the chairlift then blasting down some extreme adrenalin filled bike park - just turn up and rocket down whatever trail you want - nobody will ask for your double black cert card. Go down to the skateboard park or jump track and see what outrageous things theyre doing. Its not that they don't have the skill and commitment to be incredible its that they don't have any barriers - no courses or certs or people telling them they aren't qualified or experienced enough.

Every generation rides on the back of those that went before, knowledge gets passed down, barriers are broken, unknowns are common knowledge, what was once cutting edge technical diving (like diving with trimix for example ) is now standard practice.


Divers that have in the past been pushing new routes and exploring new areas that are now being done by those with lesser experience can feel irked. Sadly, (and I've seen it before in other sports) some consciously or unconsciously tend to hold people back or dissuade them because when they did it they were noted divers but maybe they have stopped growing, now supported only by their reputation .

@Germie raises some interesting views . I wonder if the culture, either within the sport or within the country particularly in the US where trigger happy litigation pervades - tends to make operators over cautious, holding people back, which in turn fosters self doubt and fear and a dependancy on 'experts' showing them how to do it.

 

[KevinNM]

Contour wingsuit flying was all the rage for a few years, largely driven by youtube. And then people started dying in large numbers, and not just beginners not understanding their limits. Many well known experts got killed or had life threatening accidents as they needed a little more extreme.

And now it isn’t all the rage and a recovered Jeb Corlis wingsuits along clouds at several thousand feet instead of along the ground at 3 feet and 100+ mph. And hasn’t been in a hospital or jail in years.