Save the Goliath Grouper!

[tarponchik]

Does anyone know what's the situation with GG in the Bahamas? After all, they are FL nearest neighbors.

 

[johndiver999]

They are allowed to be taken there I believe. However, I have never seen one in the Bahamas.

 

[CuzzA]

From NOAA: The goliath grouper is found primarily in shallow tropical waters among coral and artificial reefs. Its range includes the Gulf of Mexico and Florida Keys in the United States, the Bahamas, most of the Caribbean, and most of the Brazilian coast. On some occasions, goliath grouper have been caught off the coast of New England in Massachusetts and Maine. In the eastern Atlantic Ocean, goliath grouper are found off the coast of Africa from the Congo to Senegal.

Right. Outside of 100 miles off the Gulf Coast of Florida it is too deep and is not their habitat. So let's think about this. If I am seeing 20 stacked up on wrecks and two or three on natural reefs every trip, over the range of 100 miles out along the Gulf, that doesn’t jive with the experts opinion that they are "absent."

Now, if they are not in the Bahamas because those people kill every one they find, that's a piss poor excuse to use for State and Federal fisheries managers in the USA.

Let me remind everyone we learned last year the NOAA for years miscalculated their stock assessment of ARS by 3 fold. We knew they were wrong. Wookie even explained to us their method of assessment, which explained why they were wrong.

I'll bet my bottom dollar they are over their heads on assessing jewfish because they either don't dive like a recreational or commercial spearfisherman (6-8 drops a day on different spots for a couple days in a row, every other week) when they are trying to observe them or they're going to spots that are barren of life because they're chosing the same spots every ham and egger goes to hook and line fish and has raked their anchors over it for decades so consequently nothing is alive. Though I've dove these spots. There's forage fish and jewfish, not much else.

Anyone who gets a tag is likely going to go to a wreck to catch one. The wrecks are lacking biodiversity and taking some of the 800 pound giants off the wreck will help smaller species enter their habitat.

I can tell you I have no interest in eating one. The giant grouper species like Jewfish, Carbos and Warsaws have a thick fatty layer between the flakes of their meat that is undesirable compared to an adolescent black, or adult gag and red grouper. That thin buttery fat layer we all love.

There's also not much sporting value to the species. You're simply not taking one on light tackle and they're not difficult to catch. This call for an extremely limited harvest is purely to help balance out the ecosystem with humans. If all of the predator species are protected, including humans, then what refuge are we giving other species?

Bull sharks are another species that are at unprecedented stocks around Florida. Likely exploding due to warmer water and an abundance of red snapper. The experts will tell you they are rare and absent. A diver will tell you during the summer you can drop anywhere on the middle grounds and you'll quickly be greeted by two to three bullsharks sniffing up your behind.

Anyway, I'm open to counter arguments, but they need to come with facts, not opinions or guesses. And they need to come from people who are out on the water, not behind a desk punching made up numbers into statistical models.

 

[Lostdiver71]

I know that the number of Goliath Groupers now is much greater than what we had in the 80's and 90's when I started diving but having spent much of my youth around older fisherman and divers I know we are still nowhere near their historical numbers. Back in the 50's and 60's they were literally spearing a dozen or more on a trip, I have seen the pictures! Now I have not dove a wreck in the last 5 years without seeing one but only occasionally see them on a reef, although I have seen one at the Blue Heron Bridge. I think a season on them would be premature and have no commercial or recreational value, the meat is supposed to be loaded with mercury, and there are much better game fish to go after for a fight but that is my personal opinion. I also agree that many times FWC and other officials have no clue about what wildlife is actually out there. When I was younger I spent a lot of time in the water and woods in SE Florida and was told many times that there was no way I saw certain wildlife and then the GoPro was invented and all of a sudden everyone had pictures to prove what we were seeing although I believe they still have the numbers and range of the Florida Panther incorrect as I have seen them outside their reported habitat areas several times in the last 40 years.

 

[Ghost95]

The thing I'm curious about is where did all the giant fish come from? For years we didn't see any GG then all of a sudden wrecks are covered up with large numbers of fully mature adults. Is there an area where all the fish from 0-100lbs hang out before they move to the wrecks? It's strange that we weren't seeing any juveniles and then all the big guys or girls showed up.

 

[CuzzA]

The thing I'm curious about is where did all the giant fish come from? For years we didn't see any GG then all of a sudden wrecks are covered up with large numbers of fully mature adults. Is there an area where all the fish from 0-100lbs hang out before they move to the wrecks? It's strange that we weren't seeing any juveniles and then all the big guys or girls showed up.

The juveniles live among mangroves on the shore and then progressively move deeper.

 

[CuzzA]

I know that the number of Goliath Groupers now is much greater than what we had in the 80's and 90's when I started diving but having spent much of my youth around older fisherman and divers I know we are still nowhere near their historical numbers. Back in the 50's and 60's they were literally spearing a dozen or more on a trip, I have seen the pictures! Now I have not dove a wreck in the last 5 years without seeing one but only occasionally see them on a reef, although I have seen one at the Blue Heron Bridge. I think a season on them would be premature and have no commercial or recreational value, the meat is supposed to be loaded with mercury, and there are much better game fish to go after for a fight but that is my personal opinion. I also agree that many times FWC and other officials have no clue about what wildlife is actually out there. When I was younger I spent a lot of time in the water and woods in SE Florida and was told many times that there was no way I saw certain wildlife and then the GoPro was invented and all of a sudden everyone had pictures to prove what we were seeing although I believe they still have the numbers and range of the Florida Panther incorrect as I have seen them outside their reported habitat areas several times in the last 40 years.

Just remember this isn't a open season on them. It's a very limited and expensive harvest which will also help scientist do more studies on the species. Like I said from the beginning. I would hope spearing would be prohibited gear. Not because spearing is bad, but simply due to the optics,

 

[greeniguana]

The juveniles live among mangroves on the shore and then progressively move deeper.

And there are a lot of juvenile Goliaths.

The last few times I've fished in the 10,000 islands small goliaths were pretty much all we caught. Sucks when you're after snook.....

 

[BrackaFish]

A very old diver once told me that stalking a GG was like hunting a barn door, very dull until the spear hit the fish. And if you were any good, it was still dull because you had a well placed shot. The lack of good data seems to stand in the way of correct scientific based choices. A good process for reviewing any changes should be a top priority, but lack of funding always seems to hamper that. Be safe

 

[Catito]

Funnily enough, every fisheries person I know thinks this is a lousy idea. I also don't know any who use terms like "out of control" for anything besides nuisance invasives like lionfish.

A few key points out of the presentation:

• "Scientists have attempted to assess the goliath population through traditional stock assessments three times (2004, 2010, and 2016). Each assessment was rejected by independent expert reviewers. The federal fishery management councils’ scientific advisors also rejected the assessments for use in federal management. Some of the reasons why the assessments were rejected include unknowns about life history (e.g., uncertainty about maximum age), the absence long-term datasets (e.g., landings), uncertainty regarding historical landings, and lack of information about the stock outside the southeastern U.S."
  
• "Samples from over 850 fish have been analyzed and show low to moderate levels of genetic diversity. These preliminary findings are consistent with a population that was fished down to relatively few individuals and is in the process of recovering. However, more genetic samples from a wider area are needed to further evaluate this issue."
• "The current age structure of the population is missing fish in the older age classes. Only three goliaths aged after 1990 have been older than 25 years. To achieve the long-term goal of having older fish in the population, survival rates must be high."
• "Some have concerns about the absence of goliath from its historic range outside Florida, which includes the Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, and the northern part of South America. The population of goliath off Florida may contribute recruits to the historical range and help seed recovery in other areas."
• "Recreational anglers who participated in this study had moderately few interactions with goliath and viewed interactions with the fish as positive or neutral. Only 11% of anglers surveyed said they actively target goliath for catch-and-release fishing."
• "The University of Miami study estimated divers residing in eastern Florida would be willing to pay approximately $103 for a dive trip with one goliath grouper encounter during the months of their spawning aggregation (August – October). This increased to $202 if the dive trip encountered 40 goliath grouper (a number of fish common on many spawning aggregation sites). Study results suggested divers coming from outside of Florida were willing to pay higher rates for dive trips with goliath encounters. At spawning aggregation sites, non-Florida divers’ willingness to pay was estimated around $336 ... For comparison, a previous study estimated Florida resident anglers who wanted goliath to reopen to harvest were willing to pay between $34 and $79 to harvest a goliath grouper."
• "The federal councils have no plans to consider allowing harvest of goliath in federal waters. It is unlikely the federal councils will revisit the Acceptable Biological Catch (ABC), or the amount of fish the federal councils deem can sustainably be harvested from the population each year, any time soon. Thus, the federal ABC remains at zero and the councils cannot allow harvest in federal waters."
• "Though an open-access harvest is not advised, a limited harvest is possible while the population continues recovery and would provide a unique recreational fishing opportunity in Florida state waters. If allowed, harvest would be another means of providing access to the fish in line with the agency’s management philosophy for goliath. However, it is unlikely to reduce goliath conflicts with fishers as harvest would need to be very limited. Also, it likely will satisfy very few stakeholders given their highly variable opinions regarding harvest."
• "While a limited harvest could provide some useful data, it will not gather the data needed for a traditional stock assessment that can pass expert review for use in federal management."

My read between the lines is the same as last time - I definitely felt the FWC staff in the room were giving off "We think this is a dumb idea, but the higher-ups and their whinging fishing buddies told us to make the effort" looks. While they tried to make a case then and now that a limited harvest would provide useful life history data, I pointed out at the Broward County meeting back in 2017 that a slot limit wouldn't look at the upper age limit and most other data (tissue samples, etc.) could be collected nonlethally (researchers will actually routinely catch goliaths, do surgical biopsies of muscle, liver, and gonad tissue, and then sew them up and send them on their way).

The whole "unique harvesting opportunity" pitch also falls flat; as noted only 11% of the anglers surveyed actively target them for catch and release and I haven't exactly heard Hemingwayesque reviews of how thrilling they are to fight (pretty sure I've heard comparisons to dragging around a loaded 55-gallon drum). About the only demographic I see getting a kick out of that is the dumb tourist who wants a 200-lb fish on his wall as a conversation piece, and while Florida does love to cater to those the income flow there is peanuts compared to dive tourism.

The takeaway I get from the second-to-last slide is "this won't make anybody happy." Recreational divers will be outraged, it won't provide much if any additional scientific or fishery management data, it's not going to really do much for recreational anglers, and the commercial fishers and spearos a) won't be able to participate and b) won't see their demands for a significant reduction in the "out of control" goliath grouper population met. All this is going to do is crack open the door for a bigger take later on and encourage some that FWC is "doing something" about the goliath grouper "problem."



Basically this should be taken as a deja vu of the February 2017 FWC commission meeting where the staff presented the same recommendation; unless someone tries to get cute this time it would go through a similar extended public comment period before a proposed harvest rule is drafted and voted on by the commission.



As the presentation notes, their historical range extended from the Carolinas down to South America and throughout the Gulf and Caribbean. Outside of Florida they are still uncommon; up in Cape Hatteras I've seen a guy who typically has a knee-jerk "**** the feds" attitude get outraged about catching someone poaching a goliath as they aren't common in NC. Part of the reluctance to consider a reopening is that it's hoped the population in Florida will spill over through the rest of their historic range (one thing the "imbalance" crowd seems to miss is that fish don't stick around when they've exhausted their food supply; goliaths may have small home ranges but as the spawning aggregations show they are capable of long-distance movements). I'm a little perplexed at the comments that FWC is unable to establish historical landings; a friend of mine has interviewed a number of older spearfishers who talk about finding them under the Blue Heron Bridge 70-80 years ago or getting them from shore off Miami.

Thank you for the facts.