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cjager

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Messages
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Location
Canada
# of dives
100 - 199
I’m looking for a definitive “authoritative” answer to a question we’re debating. What constitutes a “dive”? We were just in Mexico and I did a fair bit of cenote diving; on one day we were at Chac Mool. We set up at “Little Brother” and the plan was to do three dives: 1. to Chac Mool; 2. to the air dome; and 3. to Kukulkan.

If you have been diving there, you’ll know that you usually surface at each destination (except we did not surface at Kukulkan) before returning to your origin. Thus, my computer recorded five dives instead of three! At the end of the day, I noted the extra dives but my buddy feels like they should only be counted as three dives. Now I’m not a diver that is trying to rack up a dive count but at the same time I think there is a certain posterity to following what my dive computer (Shearwater Perdix) records. That, and it gets complicated having to modify the dive count on my computer and dive log.

So I counter, “Well what constitutes a dive?” Her response was the typical 15 feet and 20 minutes as specified by PADI. It turns out in this case that each ‘segment’ was in fact longer than 20 minutes and averaged 40 plus feet.

Next argument – did you get out of the water, have a surface interval, or change your tanks? No, because we are diving side mount and therefore do not need to change our tanks. With the environment of the site and conditions of the day, we didn’t get out of the water even after the first or second “complete” dives. We simply continued onto the next dive. If getting out of the water and swapping tanks is a requirement then the day was one long dive and not three, or five!

On the flip side, our last ocean dive was a very shallow reef dive that lasted almost an hour. If we’re following the previously mentioned PADI stipulation than this wouldn’t have counted as a dive either. Our depth averaged less than 15 feet. We also didn’t consume the specified 50 cubic feet of air – we were too shallow to have great consumption and our dive was cut short (even though it was still an hour) due to stormy conditions. We, in fact had to get out of the water in very treacherous conditions. Does this count as a dive? I know my buddy would be upset if I said no.

Regarding air consumption, I know many people who have the skill of sucking very little air. I’m sure many of their dives are less than 50 cu. feet.

I am at an impasse. With a variety of dive site parameters, different personal dive traits and behaviours, and the variety of dive gear configurations what constitutes a single dive? As you can see, some of these parameters laid out by PADI or other organizations can go both ways. What criteria people use to deem that a dive “does not count” they may not use to apply to a different situation where they believe it should count. Not to mention that my two different dive computers don’t start/count/end dives the same way!

What is the proper protocol?
 
I’m looking for a definitive “authoritative” answer to a question we’re debating. What constitutes a “dive”?

You aren't going to find one. Some agencies define it to something specific for the purpose of meeting criteria for advanced training, but not all in the same way. For the most part, it's whatever you decide you want to put in your logbook...assuming you even keep a logbook. I gave up on that about 2 years ago.

I'm not 100% sure but I believe you can configure the depth that a shearwater starts counting the dive. Maybe set it to 20' or something.

Edit: I was wrong about that being configurable. Manual says:
Depth of dive start 1.6 m of sea water
Depth of dive end 0.9 m of sea water

Try to avoid going below and then above that depth multiple times, I suppose. Might be impossible in a shallow cave.
 
An age-old question without any "definitive" or "authoritative" answer. What matters is the context or purpose for which you're logging. If you want to know whether a dive will count toward some agency's prerequisite number for taking a course, then that agency is the only "authority" that matters in that context. If you're logging dives purely for your own interest, then you can define "loggable" any way you want.

What constitutes a loggable "dive"

what can be considered a loggable dive?

Do pool dives count?

MINIMUM Depth to Log Dive

What is a dive?

"logged Dives"

and many more
 
I think it would take a long time to formally define a dive, but common sense suggests that it's a sequence of steps that 1) starts with the descend, 2) proceeds to achieve a certain meaningful dive goal/purpose 3) ends up with the ascend and a surface interval.

According to that definition, what you had in the cenotes would be considered 3 dives, not 5, which I think makes sense. If a diver happens to surface for any reason while the dive purpose hasn't been achieved yet - to orient himself, or to enjoy a dome of a cenote - then continues with the dive, that would not constitute a new dive, but continuation of a previous one.

I don't think changing tanks is a required attribute of a dive; a couple of weeks ago I did two dives in two bodies of water a couple of hundred miles apart using the same tank, each dive was roughly 40 min long. I also don't think entering/exiting water is a required attribute of a dive, as there are sometimes valid scenarios with surface interval completed while swimming on the surface. Duration of the dive is not very relevant either - if I wanted to test some new gear for 15 min, and it would require driving to a location, donning the gear, entering, descending, doing the test, ascending, and exiting - I would absolutely count it as a dive.

So if yo understand what the purpose of your dive is, it's easy enough to figure out when that dive starts and finishes.
 
So I counter, “Well what constitutes a dive?” Her response was the typical 15 feet and 20 minutes as specified by PADI. It turns out in this case that each ‘segment’ was in fact longer than 20 minutes and averaged 40 plus feet.

On the flip side, our last ocean dive was a very shallow reef dive that lasted almost an hour. If we’re following the previously mentioned PADI stipulation than this wouldn’t have counted as a dive either. Our depth averaged less than 15 feet. We also didn’t consume the specified 50 cubic feet of air

What is the proper protocol?

There are two sections in the PADI instructors manual that discuss this. First there is a definition of a Logged Dive:

To credit as a logged dive for course requirements, the dive takes place in open water and specifc information about the dive (i.e. General Standards and Procedures 22 PADI INSTRUCTOR MANUAL date, time, location, depth, profle, etc.) is recorded. Training dives for PADI courses (in open water) qualify as logged dives.

Second there is the definition of an Open Water dive as it relates to training:

During open water dives, have divers spend the majority of time at 5 metres/15 feet or greater, and breathe at least 1400 litres or 50 cubic feet of compressed gas or remain submerged for at least 20 minutes.

So pool dives/time won't count for PADI, if you logged it as a dive and you wanted to move on to a professional level, but that's it.

Years ago I logged a dive to 70-something feet that lasted less than 10 minutes. Why? Because I was using an RDP, and at the end of the dive, she lost her fin and I went down for it. Today I wouldn't bother.

It's your log, log what you want. Logged dives are a crappy measure of diver skill and experience, there's certainly better measures, but then again I know instructors with thousands of dives that I wouldn't dive with because they scare me, and kids with 20 dives that make great buddies.
 
@cjager there is no authoritative or definitive answer on the definition of a dive. There are minimum definitions that we have to abide by when training, PADI's are outlined above, NAUI's are similar for me. There are defined minimum surface intervals for something to constitute a "new" dive, particularly when using dive tables, but after that, it is subjective.

There are many threads on here where the discussion of pool or aquarium dives count. My opinion and what I tell my students is that if they feel like they should count, then they should count. You had to plan your dive, set your gear up, make a safe entry, execute the dive plan, make a safe exit, break your gear down, and debrief your dive. Sure they are in a confined area, but at the same time you gained meaningful experience and hopefully learned something so in my opinion it counts.
Where it doesn't count is when you have 200 of those dives but only 10 dives in open water and a dive operator has a 25-dive minimum. I don't think you should go in saying you have 200 dives because you are misleading the dive-op about your experience.

Now, I teach a lot, which means I spend time at the surface annoyingly frequently on some of the dives *conducting CESA's and what not* so I have my computers set to not "end the dive" until I've been at the surface for 10 minutes. My Nitek Q unfortunately ticks over as soon as you hit the surface so my dive count is much higher on that than it is on my Shearwaters or Divesoft.

To your specific example. I would count those as 3 dives since you made a plan for 3 dives and executed 3 dives, albeit some with a short surface interval. We have a similar issue when diving in caves like Peacock Springs where the Grand Traverse has you surfacing at least once, usually twice. I count it as one dive, but some computers count it as 2/3. In your case I would leave it as 5 dives since it does become quite annoying with Shearwaters to change since it throws everything off, but if you are still low in your dive count and a dive-op asks so they can gauge your experience level, then I would be downplay that number a bit. Once you hit 50-100 dives the actual count doesn't really matter for anything other than the "milestone" dives of 250/500/1000 etc. and even then there is almost always a few dives that you forgot to log somewhere
 
I agree with counting the dives based on plan and purpose. I did a cenote dive where we surfaced and hung out in the bat cave for several minutes in the middle of it; my computer counted two dives but I only count it as one. I don't bother trying to change numbers on my computer; I just note in my log book the actual number of the dive and what number(s) it's registered under on my computer (e.g. "51 (55-56)"). If people are going to draw inferences about my skills based on my dive count, I'd rather they underestimate me and be pleasantly surprised.
 
I agree with counting the dives based on plan and purpose. I did a cenote dive where we surfaced and hung out in the bat cave for several minutes in the middle of it; my computer counted two dives but I only count it as one. I don't bother trying to change numbers on my computer; I just note in my log book the actual number of the dive and what number(s) it's registered under on my computer (e.g. "51 (55-56)"). If people are going to draw inferences about my skills based on my dive count, I'd rather they underestimate me and be pleasantly surprised.

Same here. Ive had a few quarry dives where I surfaced, BS’d with my buddy for a few minutes, and submerged. The computer gave me credit for two 20+ minute dives.

I choose to log one dive in those situations. I know some people treat those as two. I’d rather have 40+ minute dives in my log book than a greater number of 20+ minute dives.:popcorn:
 

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