NAUI versus PADI

[tbone1004]

@RainPilot, we still do have the loved ones clause

@guruboy yes, that skill is required and is an important part of our evaluation to ensure that the students are truly comfortable in the water. I firmly believe that if you can't perform these skills you shouldn't be a scuba diver.
Ditch and don has to be performed with a maximum of 3 breaths at the surface, no arm pulls or kicks on the initial surface dive, and only one arm pull allowed on the second. It is also graded and is worth 10% of their grade for the course. Students are not allowed to go to open water until that skill is successfully completed.

The following 2 skills are also required prior to going to OWT.

Another 10% of their grade is a timed circuit where they have to UW swim 25m, surface swim 375m. Without touching the wall or the floor, don their mask/fins/snorkel, then UW kick 25m, then surface kick 375 no hands allowed. The speed to do this and get full credit on that skill was done by those on the swim team, so it's a beast. 100% is 14:40 or a 55sec lap avg. 2 minute penalty each time for touching the deck/bottom and breaking the surface during an UW swim. I.e. if they have to come up twice during the UW swim it's 4 minute penalty. Skill must be completed in less than 25:20 to pass

Another 10% is a buoyancy drill. In the shallow end of the pool, approach an 8lb weight belt which is on the cross. Don weight belt without touching the floor or the surface of the water.
360* helicopter turn
Doff weight belt on cross without touching floor or surface
Turn 180* depart cross.

To get into the course, prereqs are done on the first day and are as follows
10min front crawl, no stopping
25m UW swim-this one we usually only require to be completed before OWT
10lb diving brick retrieval in a bathing suit
10min treading water

can you tell that the DSO that wrote the syllabus was one of the original cave divers in the 60's and was a Navy Frog Man? It's tough, but we bust it to make sure that every student who really wants to get certified will get certified. We won't slack from any of our requirements, but we will do whatever we can to get them to complete the course. If they can't complete the course to our standards but have completed NAUI's, we will write referrals indicating that they completed NAUI's requirements for OWT and allow someone else to finish their open water portion.
Our goal isn't to not certify divers, but you can make some great divers when there is no pressure to certify anyone.

 

[BDSC]

it was extremely strongly explained that no copies of the video were allowed outside of the classroom environment, and are completely destroyed once the student evaluation by the instructor has been completed.

I'm curious as to why the need to destroy the video? What is there to hide?

 

[scubadada]

@RainPilot, we still do have the loved ones clause

@guruboy yes, that skill is required and is an important part of our evaluation to ensure that the students are truly comfortable in the water. I firmly believe that if you can't perform these skills you shouldn't be a scuba diver.
Ditch and don has to be performed with a maximum of 3 breaths at the surface, no arm pulls or kicks on the initial surface dive, and only one arm pull allowed on the second. It is also graded and is worth 10% of their grade for the course. Students are not allowed to go to open water until that skill is successfully completed.

The following 2 skills are also required prior to going to OWT.

Another 10% of their grade is a timed circuit where they have to UW swim 25m, surface swim 375m. Without touching the wall or the floor, don their mask/fins/snorkel, then UW kick 25m, then surface kick 375 no hands allowed. The speed to do this and get full credit on that skill was done by those on the swim team, so it's a beast. 100% is 14:40 or a 55sec lap avg. 2 minute penalty each time for touching the deck/bottom and breaking the surface during an UW swim. I.e. if they have to come up twice during the UW swim it's 4 minute penalty. Skill must be completed in less than 25:20 to pass

Another 10% is a buoyancy drill. In the shallow end of the pool, approach an 8lb weight belt which is on the cross. Don weight belt without touching the floor or the surface of the water.
360* helicopter turn
Doff weight belt on cross without touching floor or surface
Turn 180* depart cross.

To get into the course, prereqs are done on the first day and are as follows
10min front crawl, no stopping
25m UW swim-this one we usually only require to be completed before OWT
10lb diving brick retrieval in a bathing suit
10min treading water

can you tell that the DSO that wrote the syllabus was one of the original cave divers in the 60's and was a Navy Frog Man? It's tough, but we bust it to make sure that every student who really wants to get certified will get certified. We won't slack from any of our requirements, but we will do whatever we can to get them to complete the course. If they can't complete the course to our standards but have completed NAUI's, we will write referrals indicating that they completed NAUI's requirements for OWT and allow someone else to finish their open water portion.
Our goal isn't to not certify divers, but you can make some great divers when there is no pressure to certify anyone.

Piece of cake compared to what we did in the pool for my 1970 LA County course. We still had the complete doff and don of all equipment. Remove all equipment and place it in a pile, surface, and with a single breath, descend and put everything back on. It was always harder in the old days

 

[tbone1004]

Piece of cake compared to what we did in the pool for my 1970 LA County course. We still had the complete doff and don of all equipment... It was always harder in the old days

we have that too though isn't quite as nasty as the LA County courses were. There is also a scuba bailout where the rig is at the bottom of the pool with valve turned off and they have to hop in and don the gear which is timed. NAUI has recently removed the time limit for instructors which is ridiculous.

there's also a pool width swim in the shallow end with regulator removed to share air from a distance. touching the bottom or the surface means it doesn't count and do over again.

In scuba 2 which is basically advanced/rescue the skills are all repeated, but the OOA swim has the reg cover and diaphragm removed and on the deck so you have to manually activate the lever and buddy breathe. That one is a b!tch and a half.
Once you can figure that one out, you have the tank yoke o-ring removed to simulate an extruded o-ring from the yoke getting knocked and have to feather the valve while manually activating the second stage lever though done solo not buddy breathing, for a minimum of 5 minutes. Again, done in the shallow section, so 1m depth and you don't pass until you can do it without touching the bottom or the surface. That one seriously blows.

All of it is to stress the students beyond what they should ever encounter in the real world, doing it in a controlled environment where if they have issues they can just stand up *except for ditch and dons*, and helps them understand how they react in stressful situations. If you can feather a valve, while manipulating the lever on a second stage and kick around for 5 minutes, there really isn't a whole lot that can happen with a regulator that should phase you.

beauty of college courses though, no way you could do that in a dive shop

 

[scubadada]

we have that too though isn't quite as nasty as the LA County courses were. There is also a scuba bailout where the rig is at the bottom of the pool with valve turned off and they have to hop in and don the gear which is timed. NAUI has recently removed the time limit for instructors which is ridiculous.

there's also a pool width swim in the shallow end with regulator removed to share air from a distance. touching the bottom or the surface means it doesn't count and do over again.

In scuba 2 which is basically advanced/rescue the skills are all repeated, but the OOA swim has the reg cover and diaphragm removed and on the deck so you have to manually activate the lever and buddy breathe. That one is a b!tch and a half.
Once you can figure that one out, you have the tank yoke o-ring removed to simulate an extruded o-ring from the yoke getting knocked and have to feather the valve while manually activating the second stage lever though done solo not buddy breathing, for a minimum of 5 minutes. Again, done in the shallow section, so 1m depth and you don't pass until you can do it without touching the bottom or the surface. That one seriously blows.

All of it is to stress the students beyond what they should ever encounter in the real world, doing it in a controlled environment where if they have issues they can just stand up *except for ditch and dons*, and helps them understand how they react in stressful situations. If you can feather a valve, while manipulating the lever on a second stage and kick around for 5 minutes, there really isn't a whole lot that can happen with a regulator that should phase you.

beauty of college courses though, no way you could do that in a dive shop

Considerably more than we had to do, I give

 

[tbone1004]

Considerably more than we had to do, I give

they beat you guys up in different ways than we are allowed to. Back in the day the ~.5mile rescue tow was actual mouth to mouth the whole way, chest compressions were real on each other, bank tank breathing, etc. No way that would be allowed now. My understanding is LA County did some similarly hard stuff back in the day.

 

[KevinNM]

ps. the thread title calls out NAUI and PADI, but I have to say that, while I have not done any training with GUE, I have been very interested in taking Fundies and, in part, it's because they do have clear, objective standards (as far as I understand it, anyway). I have even been told that (not sure if it's true) they record you on video when you do your "test" so that an independent instructor can evaluate your performance to confirm your certification/rating (whatever they call it). That appeals to me, in part, because I would be confident that I didn't "pass" because the instructor who I've paid has simply gotten tired of dealing with me and decided to accept a marginal performance that a different instructor might have failed me for.

Not in my experience. The video is just used for training purposes and is typically just a short clip (seconds vs minutes) that shows something interesting. It's always deleted afterwards, though if you really like a frame they can grab one for you.

I've seen it run two ways. One, the instructor told us we had passed after the written.

The other, with an instructor examiner running the class, after the written he talked about each of the standards and asked people how they thought they had done compared to them. At this point you've done the dives and seen the video of yourself and gotten suggestions and correction and know how everyone else looks in the water. So you pretty much know how you did and you'd have to make a fool out of yourself to claim that completing 1 of out 5 valve drills means you should get a satisfactory.

And they are not afraid to fail you, everyone in that second class got a provisional, which means that the instructor thinks that within 6 months you might be able to demonstrate sufficient mastery to pass, and that you didn't demonstrate unsafe attitude or totally unacceptable level of skill.

I've failed a class too, I just couldn't reach the left valve at all.

 

[KevinNM]

I'm curious as to why the need to destroy the video? What is there to hide?

The video is not usually used to show how great you are. It's showing that you are doing something wrong, typically a flaw that you don't recognize. It's often kind of embarrassing.

Policy is that it's destroyed. GUE takes instructor violation of standards or policy very seriously.

 

[AlexL]

It's often kind of embarrassing.

you nailed it right on the head, Kevin. as much as i dislike the term 'safe space', its what a constructive learning environment needs to be. those videos are critiqued very hard, with every single little flaw is pointed out, sometimes with pretty brutal and blunt feedback. it is an extremely embarrassing experience at times, but a necessary part of the process. i would not want someone outside of our team (as we were more then a class by the end of things) to view any of it, even the parts that we got right near the end!

having said that, i think that video is an amazing, if oft under utilized, tool for scuba instruction. we've tagged along with local divers with camera in tow when they've asked for our input on an issue they are having, and 30 seconds of video footage often tells the story far more directly and effectively then our words can.

 

[tilikum]

A class such as tbone's would take all the fun out of diving although I am sure I could complete the skills.