BCD vs Wing in adrift situation.

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A poodle jacket won't let you float on your back, which is my favorite position on the surface, especially when swimming.
I really don't understand this statement. I mostly use a BCD and only part of the inflated cell is under me when I'm on my back with the main cells being at the sides. Lying/swimming on my back is much easier than when I'm using a wing where I'm trying to balance on top of the single cell.

A few posters also made comments that when they fully inflate BCDs they get body squeeze. Sounds like they have badly fitting or poorly designed units. On my Cressi the cummerbund closed with a big velcro patch remains at a fixed circumference holding the BCD snugly in place whatever the inflation while the side cells are independent on sliders and only held together at the front by the clip that is on elasticated strips. When fully inflated the main cells move apart and don't squeeze me uncomfortably.
 
Given that you apparently haven't yet succeeded in getting your BC into production I'm curious as to your sources concerning the relative costs of production.

As a current producer of wings, (16 models and counting) I have a front row seat for what is actually involved.

Most bc's sold today are "single Layer" meaning two sheets of textiles with a thin layer of urethane glued to the inner surface are RF welded together. There is no inner bladder in virtually all conventional BC's on the market today. Single layer inflatables can easily be identified by the "edge tape" sewn around the perimeter. It's like a piece of ribbon ~1 " or so wide folded over the unfinished edge of the main material that exists beyond the area of the weld.

Most wings OTOH consist of a sew outer shell with a separate inner bladder. The inner bladder may be a straight urethane film (DSS uses a custom made 30 mil urethane film), or a 200-400 denier textile with a thin layer of urethane laminated with adhesive.

Unlike a conventional BC a wing requires cutting and sewing of the "shell" usually about 10 individual pieces, and cutting and welding of the bladder.

Unlike a conventional BC a wing requires the assembly of the bladder to the shell. When the rf welder platten rises on a typical jacket BC it's nearly completed, not so for most wings.

Wings are also typically produced in much smaller volumes than BC's making some economies of scale available to the producers of conventional BC's impractical for wings. Rotary tables for RF welding, and automated cutting and trimming are common in the production of BC's and are essentially unknown in the production of most wings.

Tobin
No I have not succeeded to have my BC manufactured yet. I have declined two offers so far and 2 companies declined to build it for me. I'm only doing it on the side and have actively been talking to people for 6 month or so. I wasn't expecting it to go faster because I'm not delusional.

Your way of argueing is very dishonest. You never actually answer anything, you just claim I said something and argue against that. That's what politicians do.
What's the point in comparing a single shell jacket to a wing? Oh, right, so you can make your argument. Yet again, you're spinning what I said so you have something you can argue about.

First of all, I have sources and prices for all materials directly from the manufacturers. All kinds of cordura and PU film and webbing are manufactured here in Germany, so all I had to do is call them and have them send me a quote for different quatities. The manufacturer here doesn't glue the PU onto the nylon. They use PU granulate and melt or 'bake' in onto the fabric, so no glue.

The better jackets do use an inner PU bladder. If you look at jackets like the Master by SB. The elctrode or die or whatever you wanna call it, for a wing is less expensive than for a Master type jacket. The Master jacket also needs more man-hour to make. Sewing in zipper cost money, sewing the webbing onto the outer bag cost money, sewing in the pockets costs money and so on. Stuff you don't have to do for your wings. Saving these steps decreses the manufacturing cost significantly. Depending on where you make it, the labour/hours is what costs the most money. I know, you claim stuff like the electrode is oh so expensive, yet, if I would have it made in Germany it's less than 3 grand. You can decuct this AND if you were to sell only 300 rigs in 5 years it's 10 dollars per stock unit. Tooling for other products were you need different molds and such are WAY more expensive to make than a few thousend dollars. With molds you might even have to make more than one to get it right. Even small manufacturers like you should be selling more than 300 in 5 years though, hence, the actual cost are lower. The machine work you either source out, or you do enough volume to so outsourcing of the metalwork and such is cheaper to do inhouse. On the other hand, one hour of labour (average of welding and sewing) here in Germany cost me between 75-90 dollars!
Compared to this, materials are pretty cheap, doesn't matter how thick the film is, it's still a tiny portion of the total cost.

Now, spin what I said, as you always do.
 
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What I found interesting was that he had removed his equipment and was floating just in his neoprene and I wondered why he'd done this.

It would be my conjecture that his equipment fit poorly and he was uncomfortable in it. Perhaps he was new. New divers are more prone to ditch their gear.

I have dived both with a conventional jacket and a wing and I certainly did find that the tendency with the wing when floating at the surface is to push your face forwards towards the water so it would certainly be more tiring to stay in that position for some hours.

I have dived with a jacket-style BC in the past, but now exclusively dive with a BP+W setup.

It is my experience that a properly sized jacket-style BC will provide good vertical lift at the surface, and will in most cases bring the tops of the diver's shoulders out of the water.

It is my experience that a BP+W can do this also when fitted and used properly. The straps have to be adjusted so that the backplate is at the proper height, and the crotch strap and waist strap have to be tight enough to keep the backplate in position. The wing has to be the right size, and has to be properly positioned on the backplate. A buoyant cylinder, such as an empty AL80 in salt water, can contribute to a face-forward float at the surface. It takes experience (or a perceptive mind and some trial and error) to get the straps on the backplate set properly.

Any thoughts?

The incident raises all kinds of questions. Apparently the diver surfaced near the boat but there wasn't a line to hold onto (or the diver couldn't find it), and the diver was unable to attract the attention of anyone on the boat.

I bring a whistle, mirror, and 3' "safety sausage" on boat dives, and sometimes bring the 6' SMB.
 
That whole "what if I got stuck in the water for a long time" has always been at the back of my mind. It is certainly doable in bp/w, but I think it would be a problem if I was in the water so long I had to sleep. In a jacket, sleeping would be totally doable I think. I'm hoping that good skills, my large SMB, whistle, mirror, and nautilus lifeline radio will prevent that from being something I ever get to answer.
I only brought it up because the OP asked for the situation in the article. I actually know several people that got lost. I few buddys of mine got drifted for 8 hours. I have never waited longer than an hour, but if I had to wait for only an hour in choppy water with beginners, I'd prefer they are in jackets over wings. I have nothing against wings but I do think they are overhyped and I do think jackets have their place.

...you've got overzealous in your argument.
Sorry, I know, I get annoyed by Tobin.
 
It is my experience that a properly sized jacket-style BC will provide good vertical lift at the surface, and will in most cases bring the tops of the diver's shoulders out of the water.

It is my experience that a BP+W can do this also when fitted and used properly. The straps have to be adjusted so that the backplate is at the proper height, and the crotch strap and waist strap have to be tight enough to keep the backplate in position. The wing has to be the right size, and has to be properly positioned on the backplate.
My main issue when transitioning from a jacket to a wing was the feeling of being lower in the water at the surface. Even with a 40# wing (yes, with the amount of weight I carry, I need at least 30# to float my rig on the surface), I felt I was uncomfortably low in the water. TSandM advised me to tighten my crotch strap, and that fixed the whole issue. Apart from having the crotch strap short enough and and the waist strap tight enough, IME a BP/W setup is rather forgiving WRT fitting. I mean, what else is there to adjust? Since the shoulder straps shouldn't be too tight, IME some variation there has no effect. After all, their only task is to keep your rig from sliding down below your butt while on land...
 
My main issue when transitioning from a jacket to a wing was the feeling of being lower in the water at the surface. Even with a 40# wing (yes, with the amount of weight I carry, I need at least 30# to float my rig on the surface), I felt I was uncomfortably low in the water. TSandM advised me to tighten my crotch strap, and that fixed the whole issue. Apart from having the crotch strap short enough and and the waist strap tight enough, IME a BP/W setup is rather forgiving WRT fitting. I mean, what else is there to adjust? Since the shoulder straps shouldn't be too tight, IME some variation there has no effect. After all, their only task is to keep your rig from sliding down below your butt while on land...

Exactly. It's entirely reasonable to use a 40 lbs lift wing in cold northern waters. Exposure suit buoyancy is the main driver of required lift in cold water. We offer 40 lbs singles wings, but sell very few, as most divers aren't using suits more buoyant than the low 30's

As I have repeatedly noted comfort at the surface in BP&W is a function of proper weighting and a properly adjusted harness, key being the proper use of the crotch strap.

IME the fact that most BC's do not have crotch strap, and many new BP&W divers are either afraid of the crotch strap or uncertain how to employ one to good effect leads to crotch straps that are often too loose to be effective.

It's nice to see you address this specific issue.

Tobin
 
I really don't understand this statement. I mostly use a BCD and only part of the inflated cell is under me when I'm on my back with the main cells being at the sides. Lying/swimming on my back is much easier than when I'm using a wing where I'm trying to balance on top of the single cell.

I'm in a drysuit and doubles with a torus wing. At the end of a (cold lake) dive (hood and mask in pockets) I almost fall asleep on my back. I like to just lay there with my eyes closed slowly deep breathing, or do slow helicopter turns staring at the birds and clouds for 15 minutes or longer because, I'm told, it's better for you than charging out of the water and up a steep ramp in doubles. It's also incredibly peaceful.
 
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many new BP&W divers are either afraid of the crotch strap
I don't know about "afraid", but the crotch strap/weight belt conflict is my main beef with the BP/W setup. Wear the belt outside the harness, and you risk snagging the belt on the butt D-ring if you have to dump weights. Wear the belt inside the strap, and you - or your buddy - will have to undo the waist belt and release the crotch strap to dump your weights. I opted for the latter config, but I'm not totally happy with it. As we say over here, it's a choice between cholera and the plague...
 
Your way of argueing is very dishonest. You never actually answer anything, you just claim I said something and argue against that. That's what politicians do.

Where specifically was I dishonest? You claimed Jacket BC's are more expensive to produce than wings.

In my real world, hands on, professional capacity I have not found this to be the case.

Depending on where you make it, the labour/hours is what costs the most money. I know, you claim stuff like the electrode is oh so expensive, yet, if I would have it made in Germany it's less than 3 grand.

I never claimed welding dies were unreasonably expensive, I have pointed out that dies are required and are an expense that many are unaware of. $3000 for a production run of a dozen is typically prohibitive. $3000 for a run of few 100 may not be. I done rf welding design development for Aerospace applications where a $2-3K die was acceptable, even though we only produced about a dozen parts.

Tooling for other products were you need different molds and such are WAY more expensive to make than a few thousend dollars. With molds you might even have to make more than one to get it right

Are you aware that I am a tool maker? I have designed and manufactured over 40 molds for the scuba business. We build the molds and "shoot" the parts. Our singles wings include 12 different custom molded items, each of which requires a unique mold. Our Doubles wing only require 10.....

Tobin
 

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