My Confined Water Dive with BP/W experience
- Thread starter DaK1
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You are doing an OW boat dive after one pool session in your bpw? Find another instructor. That this one did not do a proper weight check is inexcusable. You and he are risking your safety. Do a proper check or stay out of the water. This class sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
KevinNM
Contributor
Lots of people starting a scuba class get overweighted. Even trying to run a buoyancy check on new students is hard, because they often keep kicking due to nervousness. So there is a tendency to hand them a lot of weight.
I really don't know how much weight you need. My log book says that way back when, in my open water dives wearing a 7mm farmer john, I had 30 pounds of lead in fresh water. A few months later I had 28. But that was with a Balance BCD, which I think is at least slightly positive.
So he might be right and I wouldn't just ignore his suggestions. If you can, perform a buoyancy check before you start the next dive, however it says to do it in your manual. The main trick is to not move your hands or feet, which people tend to do unconsciously.
To make life easier, can you borrow a weight belt with a bunch of pockets? Kind of like this one? XS Scuba Pocket Weight Belts This is good because it is a lot easier to add or remove weight from the pockets then to try to run the belt through the weights or to add/remove weight with the weight pockets of the BCD.
Important note: With a BP/W, weight belts go on last, OVER the crotch strap. If you need to dump weight, you want the belt to fall free, not get stuck on the crotch strap.
If you cannot easily get a buoyancy check done, well, lots of people get their C-card over-weighted. It certainly isn't ideal, but it happens. Once the class is done and you have your card go practice in the pool and determine how much weight you really need.
If you think the straps are too tight, try these pages for suggestions on setup of the BP/W: DIR-diver.com - Adjust the backplate. Also see http://www.halcyon.net/files/manuals/Halcyon_BC_2009.pdf, page 7 & 8. Ignore the cinch part unless you really do have a Halcyon BCD. Note that you should fit it wearing your wet suit.
I used these and still got the straps too tight. So note that when they say you should be able to stick 2-3 fingers under the shoulder straps they really mean it.
I really don't know how much weight you need. My log book says that way back when, in my open water dives wearing a 7mm farmer john, I had 30 pounds of lead in fresh water. A few months later I had 28. But that was with a Balance BCD, which I think is at least slightly positive.
So he might be right and I wouldn't just ignore his suggestions. If you can, perform a buoyancy check before you start the next dive, however it says to do it in your manual. The main trick is to not move your hands or feet, which people tend to do unconsciously.
To make life easier, can you borrow a weight belt with a bunch of pockets? Kind of like this one? XS Scuba Pocket Weight Belts This is good because it is a lot easier to add or remove weight from the pockets then to try to run the belt through the weights or to add/remove weight with the weight pockets of the BCD.
Important note: With a BP/W, weight belts go on last, OVER the crotch strap. If you need to dump weight, you want the belt to fall free, not get stuck on the crotch strap.
If you cannot easily get a buoyancy check done, well, lots of people get their C-card over-weighted. It certainly isn't ideal, but it happens. Once the class is done and you have your card go practice in the pool and determine how much weight you really need.
If you think the straps are too tight, try these pages for suggestions on setup of the BP/W: DIR-diver.com - Adjust the backplate. Also see http://www.halcyon.net/files/manuals/Halcyon_BC_2009.pdf, page 7 & 8. Ignore the cinch part unless you really do have a Halcyon BCD. Note that you should fit it wearing your wet suit.
I used these and still got the straps too tight. So note that when they say you should be able to stick 2-3 fingers under the shoulder straps they really mean it.
Mr Carcharodon
Contributor
There is no way to know for sure without testing. For what it's worth (not much) I wear about 10 pounds in the backplate (with P-weight), and 8 pounds on a belt when wearing a 7 mm with a hooded vest. If your open water dive is 30 or 40 feet you will not incur a significant decompression obligation so there is no consequence if you cannot stay down. But if you are going deeper you are better off going a bit too heavy than too light so you can hold your stops. Do take a pocket or some other way so you can take 2 or 3 pounds off at the end of the dive to check your buoyancy. After four or five dives you should have it dialed in.
eelnoraa
Contributor
I see a fundamental issue here if someone haven't already mentioned. 6lb plate, 8lb bolt on, 20lb on waist strap, total of 34lb lead with 30lb wing, if you ditch your rig, it will sink to the bottom.
Like other suggested, you should ask for a weight check. Get it right for pool. Then make adjustment for salt water, then do weight check after the first dive. And like other says, I don't think you even need 34lb in salt water. In fresh water, you will need even less.
Like other suggested, you should ask for a weight check. Get it right for pool. Then make adjustment for salt water, then do weight check after the first dive. And like other says, I don't think you even need 34lb in salt water. In fresh water, you will need even less.
Did your instructor know you already had 12lbs on your backplate? do you mind me asking your height and weight?
Given the weight attached to the rig, did you inflate the wing underwater before performing the remove and replace?
---------- Post added February 23rd, 2015 at 08:38 PM ----------
for once i'm with Jim - no one should go do open water boat dives after just one confined session.
second, you should reallky do a weight check - your size and 7mm seem to indicate somewehre 20 and 25 lbs should be sufficient.
Also, you'd do better having less weight in your integrated system and a small belt ~4lbs to do exercises with.
---------- Post added February 23rd, 2015 at 08:40 PM ----------
the OP already said is using a DSS BP\W system - DSS has the equivalent of the Halcyon Cinch called Glide to quickly loosen one strap - the OP should get one to facilitate adjustments.
USFpsychDiver
Contributor
One advantage of a BP/W is that it's highly adjustable so it can fit you perfectly. The disadvantage is that it takes some adjusting to get just right. Generally the shoulder straps should be looser than you might think is optimal and the crotch strap tighter. The weight has already been discussed, but in my experience having a buoyancy check in OW class is the exception, not the rule (I didn't have one). I wouldn't recommend ignoring your instructor and I have no idea how good he or she is, but probably doesn't have time to do gear/weighting customization for all the students. You said you were 230 lbs I think? A bigger guy anyway -- if that weight is muscle that's less buoyant, if not that'll make you floatier. Combine a way heavy rig with tight straps and a floaty diver and anyone would have trouble doffing and donning underwater. After some dives, making adjustments to the rig, it'll get right. After some dives dropping and adding weight you'll get that right too (I started with 18 lbs and now dive with about 8 -- it's common to need less weight as you get more comfortable in the water). As for taking the rig off and on underwater, that's one of those things they teach and I'm sure there are good reasons for it, but unlike clearing your mask, which is something you'll do frequently, taking the rig off and putting it back on underwater is one of those things I've never had to do and I've never met anyone who had to do it in an actual dive.
I have had only one diver our of several dozen I have helped set up BPW's not be able to get a std harness to fit right. His build just did not lend itself to one. I put him in a manta hr3 harness with a chest strap and adjustable shoulder straps. Once we did this it took all of 15 minutes to get it adjusted. The funny thing is that now he never adjusts the shoulder straps. It all had to do with the angle of them on his body. I do know that there is one mfg looking at an h harness to use with bpw setups. Similar to what a number of sidemount rigs use.
For those who I have helped with standard one piece harnesses it has taken about a half hour in the water to get them close to what I'd say was 90%. There is still some tweaking involved due to webbing stretching, getting the d rings and buckle just right, etc. But then I've done a few of these.
Whenever I sell one to a local customer I try to get them in the pool to set it up. Part of the purchase / service. No extra cost for this.
Where I see the biggest problems is with those who can't seem to accept that they don't need all the weight they were told they did.
The first thing I do with every student is a weight check without the rig. Just exposure suit and mask, snorkel, fins. Then with the rig and a full tank. Followed by one with a tank with 500-700 psi.
Every pool session starts with a proper weight check. It is not uncommon for students to adjust their weights several times during the pool training. To not have them do this is just unthinkable to me. What are they supposed to do on their ow checkouts? Have me tell them what they need? Not gonna happen.
Standards call for students to be neutral in open water. That to me means properly weighted. The only way to do that is with proper checks. Anything else is just laziness on the part of the instructor. Maybe some incompetence thrown in as well.
For those who I have helped with standard one piece harnesses it has taken about a half hour in the water to get them close to what I'd say was 90%. There is still some tweaking involved due to webbing stretching, getting the d rings and buckle just right, etc. But then I've done a few of these.
Whenever I sell one to a local customer I try to get them in the pool to set it up. Part of the purchase / service. No extra cost for this.
Where I see the biggest problems is with those who can't seem to accept that they don't need all the weight they were told they did.
The first thing I do with every student is a weight check without the rig. Just exposure suit and mask, snorkel, fins. Then with the rig and a full tank. Followed by one with a tank with 500-700 psi.
Every pool session starts with a proper weight check. It is not uncommon for students to adjust their weights several times during the pool training. To not have them do this is just unthinkable to me. What are they supposed to do on their ow checkouts? Have me tell them what they need? Not gonna happen.
Standards call for students to be neutral in open water. That to me means properly weighted. The only way to do that is with proper checks. Anything else is just laziness on the part of the instructor. Maybe some incompetence thrown in as well.
@DaK1: First, here is a good page on adjusting your harness, with a picture to give you an idea of the slack you should have in your shoulder straps.
https://www.divegearexpress.com/library/hogrigging.shtml
When I first set mine up, I had the same problem as you described for getting it on and off. Once I slackened the shoulders straps the right amount, it became easy to get on and off - and without the DSS "Glide" quick-adjust deal. Normally, I just catch the right shoulder D-ring with my right thumb and pull that back to free my right shoulder. Then a little spin (counter-clockwise) pulls my left arm out of the other side and I'm free. If you can't easily hook the right shoulder D-ring with your right thumb, then the position of the D-ring is definitely not right.
I am almost your exact same size. I'm 6' 1", 230 pounds. I'm assuming you got the DSS backplate in size Large. That is just under 6 pounds, but other sizes are different weights. In fresh water, with my 7mm suit on I would only need my BP plus somewhere around 6 - 8 pounds of weight. That makes me think you were roughly 20 pounds over weighted, with your BP plus the bolt-on weights. That much extra weight would completely ruin the underwater experience for me. I did a pool session recently and was being lazy, so I wore no wetsuit at all and just went in with my BP (no bolt-on weights and no other weights added). Just the 6 pound BP had me so over weighted that I had to fight constantly just to try and maintain a horizontal trim. Lesson learned. I won't do that again. Even WITH my 3/2 full suit on, just the BP has me a little over weighted (in the pool - i.e. fresh water). Switching to my 7mm suit, adds about 10 pounds of positive buoyancy to my rig. Thus, I think my BP plus the bolt-on weights (and that's it) would be just about right for a 7mm suit, in fresh water (assuming a single AL80 tank, of course).
I would say that, if your instructor tells everyone, meaning mostly people with some regular BCD, to put on 20 pounds, then you should mentally do some arithmetic, on the basis that you have already put on 14 pounds (i.e. BP plus bolt-on weights), and only add 6. And, like I said, even with that, I wouldn't be surprised if you were a bit over weighted. If you have the chance to experiment, I would try just the BP with bolt-on weights, with your 7mm suit and see if that's enough. If not, add 2# at a time until you find your number.
https://www.divegearexpress.com/library/hogrigging.shtml
When I first set mine up, I had the same problem as you described for getting it on and off. Once I slackened the shoulders straps the right amount, it became easy to get on and off - and without the DSS "Glide" quick-adjust deal. Normally, I just catch the right shoulder D-ring with my right thumb and pull that back to free my right shoulder. Then a little spin (counter-clockwise) pulls my left arm out of the other side and I'm free. If you can't easily hook the right shoulder D-ring with your right thumb, then the position of the D-ring is definitely not right.
I am almost your exact same size. I'm 6' 1", 230 pounds. I'm assuming you got the DSS backplate in size Large. That is just under 6 pounds, but other sizes are different weights. In fresh water, with my 7mm suit on I would only need my BP plus somewhere around 6 - 8 pounds of weight. That makes me think you were roughly 20 pounds over weighted, with your BP plus the bolt-on weights. That much extra weight would completely ruin the underwater experience for me. I did a pool session recently and was being lazy, so I wore no wetsuit at all and just went in with my BP (no bolt-on weights and no other weights added). Just the 6 pound BP had me so over weighted that I had to fight constantly just to try and maintain a horizontal trim. Lesson learned. I won't do that again. Even WITH my 3/2 full suit on, just the BP has me a little over weighted (in the pool - i.e. fresh water). Switching to my 7mm suit, adds about 10 pounds of positive buoyancy to my rig. Thus, I think my BP plus the bolt-on weights (and that's it) would be just about right for a 7mm suit, in fresh water (assuming a single AL80 tank, of course).
I would say that, if your instructor tells everyone, meaning mostly people with some regular BCD, to put on 20 pounds, then you should mentally do some arithmetic, on the basis that you have already put on 14 pounds (i.e. BP plus bolt-on weights), and only add 6. And, like I said, even with that, I wouldn't be surprised if you were a bit over weighted. If you have the chance to experiment, I would try just the BP with bolt-on weights, with your 7mm suit and see if that's enough. If not, add 2# at a time until you find your number.
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