PADI vs NAUI

[suunto_diver]

I was just merely trying to make a "SUGGESTION" on MarcelT's statement..All i thought that is a SIMPLE thread that discusses opinions on both dive agencies..Discussions here is getting even HOTTER each time one comments..It doesn't make any since why we make a bit of offensive remarks on a particular agency when these agencies regardless what they are called, just simply plays as a GUIDE for us to teach and let our students understand SCUBA DIVING as a whole.."Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion though..that's a given fact!.." Whatever your opinions are, i respect them and respect you guys..


Best Fishes!..

suunto_diver

 

[Thalassamania]

I was just merely trying to make a "SUGGESTION" on MarcelT's statement..All i thought that is a SIMPLE thread that discusses opinions on both dive agencies..Discussions here is getting even HOTTER each time one comments..It doesn't make any since why we make a bit of offensive remarks on a particular agency when these agencies regardless what they are called, just simply plays as a GUIDE for us to teach and let our students understand SCUBA DIVING as a whole.."Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion though..that's a given fact!.." Whatever your opinions are, i respect them and respect you guys..


Best Fishes!..

suunto_diver

But what you say (e.g., "when these agencies regardless what they are called, just simply plays as a GUIDE for us to teach and let our students understand SCUBA DIVING as a whole") simply is not the case. I'm not making an offensive remark about PADI when I say that PADI standards require that you certify a student based soley on the student's "mastery" of the skills PADI specifies. That's simply a fact. There are no opinions about facts.

 

[BoltSnap]

I was just merely trying to make a "SUGGESTION" on MarcelT's statement..All i thought that is a SIMPLE thread that discusses opinions on both dive agencies..Discussions here is getting even HOTTER each time one comments..It doesn't make any since why we make a bit of offensive remarks on a particular agency when these agencies regardless what they are called, just simply plays as a GUIDE for us to teach and let our students understand SCUBA DIVING as a whole.."Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion though..that's a given fact!.." Whatever your opinions are, i respect them and respect you guys..


suunto_diver

Why do some folks get all bent out of shape when all what Whiteshark is doing is stating the facts of what the PADI "way" of training divers is and what it requires from its instructors?? I don't see any disrespect in that at all. The PADI system is so regimented and so specific on how things should be done by the instructors. It is intolerant of deviation, creativity or any independence on the part of the instructor. When one argues otherwise, it would only show that the person hasn't understood the PADI system fully or is in a state of denial.

Actually, one can argue that the PADI system is a very efficient system and is always being optimized to meet PADI owners' corporate objectives; make the system regimented, specific, allow no deviation or creativity where one will have to follow a specific recipe/algorithm. When you turn your educational system into an "algorithm" that all of your instructors have to follow exactly, more instructors can be certified in a shorter time to be able to certify more students and meet the corporate goals. This "algorithmic" system would allow less capable instructors to pass through the system yet still meet the corporate objectives. In other words, it would become a "production line." If one tries to change anything in this production line, the production line would come to a stop and thus no change, creativity or deviation is allowed.

The debate about the merits of the PADI school of thought and what this system is good for is a different topic.

 

[AggieDad]

I have read this thread off and on for a LONG time and it is the same people saying the same things over and over and over. Here is a quote from post #15 way back in August of 2003:

Walter and Jonathan,
Here we go again. Does it have to be spelled out in the standards? (I know Walter's answer). Any instructor who has students remove and replace a mask UW without having them go through a few breathing cycles is incompetent.
I've had this discussion with Walter: IMO some things are implied in standards by necessity or practicality. If a student rips and replaces a mask in 5 seconds, what decent instructor will deem that as "comfortable" or as "mastery"?

The whole subject of a PADI instructor having to certify if the student "masters" the skill is broached as a mandatory, the instructor has no judgment involved deal if you read some of the posts. I think the above quote says it very well... What decent instructor will deem that as "comfortable" or as "mastery". PADI instructors are actually allowed to use their judgment as to what mastery is. Yes, the "standard" is spelled out but I, as a PADI instructor am allowed to make the judgment and in fact just completing the skill successfully one time is not mastery by anyone standards if the student has had trouble prior. My course director is very familiar with the standards and was very adamant about this subject and we spent a LOT of time discussing exactly what this means. In the shop that I work through, just about all the instructors have gone to teaching the skills in mid-water. Is this a violation of PADI standards? NO but it could be if the reason an instructor doesn't certify someone because they can't - BUT and a very big BUT - if a decent instructor feels that uncomfortable with someone not being able to do this then the area of judgment comes in, and YES PADI allows this. I get the feeling that if a student cannot do the skills to "fundies" standards then some instructors wouldn't pass them and that is just based upon the verbiage that some use. I just think it is funny that some, in their zeal to bash PADI or to prove their superiority in language usage play amateur lawyers. If we hadn't discussed this so much in my IDC, and my course director probably knows how the standards were arrived at better than anyone else here (she was married to Ralph Erickson - one of the founders of PADI) so I feel confident when she said "Standards allow for judgment."
If I have a deep down gut feeling...I don't certify. And I bust my butt to work with a student having troubles as I am sure all of the instructors do here.

I enjoy the discussions and especially with some of the very experienced instructors as it helps me with my teaching. As Dive Training magazine says "A good diver is always learning"...I learn something from everyone I dive with or around and so far I have noticed that either a PADI trained or NAUI or any other agency diver....they breath in and the blow bubbles out.

 

[Thalassamania]

Why do some folks get all bent out of shape when all what Whiteshark is doing is stating the facts of what the PADI "way" of training divers is and what it requires from its instructors?? I don't see any disrespect in that at all. The PADI system is so regimented and so specific on how things should be done by the instructors. It is intolerant of deviation, creativity or any independence on the part of the instructor. When one argues otherwise, it would only show that the person hasn't understood the PADI system fully or is in a state of denial.

Actually, one can argue that the PADI system is a very efficient system and is always being optimized to meet PADI owners' corporate objectives; make the system regimented, specific, allow no deviation or creativity where one will have to follow a specific recipe/algorithm. When you turn your educational system into an "algorithm" that all of your instructors have to follow exactly, more instructors can be certified in a shorter time to be able to certify more students and meet the corporate goals. This "algorithmic" system would allow less capable instructors to pass through the system yet still meet the corporate objectives. In other words, it would become a "production line." If one tries to change anything in this production line, the production line would come to a stop and thus no change , creativity or deviation is allowed.

The debate about the merits of the PADI school of thought and what this system is good for is a different topic.

Note: Burhan is having a flashback ... twenty years ago, on the GENIE Scuba BBS my handle was, "white.shark."

I have read this thread off and on for a LONG time and it is the same people saying the same things over and over and over. Here is a quote from post #15 way back in August of 2003:

Walter and Jonathan,
Here we go again. Does it have to be spelled out in the standards? (I know Walter's answer). Any instructor who has students remove and replace a mask UW without having them go through a few breathing cycles is incompetent.
I've had this discussion with Walter: IMO some things are implied in standards by necessity or practicality. If a student rips and replaces a mask in 5 seconds, what decent instructor will deem that as "comfortable" or as "mastery"?

The whole subject of a PADI instructor having to certify if the student "masters" the skill is broached as a mandatory, the instructor has no judgment involved deal if you read some of the posts. I think the above quote says it very well... What decent instructor will deem that as "comfortable" or as "mastery". PADI instructors are actually allowed to use their judgment as to what mastery is. Yes, the "standard" is spelled out but I, as a PADI instructor am allowed to make the judgment and in fact just completing the skill successfully one time is not mastery by anyone standards if the student has had trouble prior. My course director is very familiar with the standards and was very adamant about this subject and we spent a LOT of time discussing exactly what this means. In the shop that I work through, just about all the instructors have gone to teaching the skills in mid-water. Is this a violation of PADI standards? NO but it could be if the reason an instructor doesn't certify someone because they can't - BUT and a very big BUT - if a decent instructor feels that uncomfortable with someone not being able to do this then the area of judgment comes in, and YES PADI allows this. I get the feeling that if a student cannot do the skills to "fundies" standards then some instructors wouldn't pass them and that is just based upon the verbiage that some use. I just think it is funny that some, in their zeal to bash PADI or to prove their superiority in language usage play amateur lawyers. If we hadn't discussed this so much in my IDC, and my course director probably knows how the standards were arrived at better than anyone else here (she was married to Ralph Erickson - one of the founders of PADI) so I feel confident when she said "Standards allow for judgment."
If I have a deep down gut feeling...I don't certify. And I bust my butt to work with a student having troubles as I am sure all of the instructors do here.

I enjoy the discussions and especially with some of the very experienced instructors as it helps me with my teaching. As Dive Training magazine says "A good diver is always learning"...I learn something from everyone I dive with or around and so far I have noticed that either a PADI trained or NAUI or any other agency diver....they breath in and the blow bubbles out.

We are not discussing what constitutes "mastery," as they were back at post #15, so that is not really relevant to what is on the table now. The current discussion stems from a statement by Walter:

... My class would violate PADI standards.

To which MarcelT responded:

Just out of curiosity, what would you like to do that would violate PADI standards?

I outlined where items in my course would run afoul of PADI standads:

Same here. The scary thing is that there are very large numbers who "do not fit that mold" think that they are doing a good job because they have NEVER, in fact, witnessed a good job.

Order of skills, buoyant free ascents, choice of texts, choice of specific training materials, "certification" of assistants, skills and knowledge added that failure to learn will result in no certification, for that matter certification comes down, in the final analysis, the the staff's subjective judgement. Over the years I had several PADI certified divers apply for course credit here are a few examples:

1. I agreed to let the student take the written final and pool skill exam, she flunked both.

2. I offered to permit a student to challenge the course by take a swim test, free diving test, scuba test and final written exam. Would it surprise you to hear that he could not swim 400 meters?

3. A student, who was a PADI Instructor, wanted credit for PADI Open Water, PADI Advanced, and a couple of specialty courses. His request was based on the fact that all the course included material that we included in our class and they all added up to a bit more than 100 hours. He also wanted credit for PADI Assistant Instructor and PADI Instructor based on the AI and Instructor courses that we ran. If you want to read the details of the PADI courses on the ACE website, here a link.

He was looking for something like seven credits. I gave him the now standard deal, he did pass the swim test, but did very poorly on the final exam. He was not able to complete the confined water tests. He had the balls to complain to my Administration that that his prior training had not prepared him for either the written or pool exam, that he could not imagine anyone but a SEAL (his words not mine) could pass either, and so (ipso facto) I had to have been rougher on him than I was on "normal" students who took the course(s).

I was fortunate that the President’s wife had taken the 100 hr course a year before (she was a hot ticket, not the sort of thing I’d recommend for most people in their last 60s). She made it quite clear that I had asked this student to do anything that she had not been asked to do.

But he wouldn’t go away, he still wanted to know about the AI and Instructor credits. I told him that that was out of the question since the written exam that he flunked was the NAUI Master Diver Exam (conceptually the NAUI Instructor Exam without the teaching and NAUI sections). Even that did not end it, but he finally sort of just petered out and went away.

Then oahu_diver stated (incorrectly):

I saw a comment earlier in this thread that stated if the student completed all the requirements, you had no choice as an instructor (PADI) but to certify them. This is not true at all. I do have a choice...and if I feel the student can't dive safely, I will not certify them.

and MarcelT amplified (incorrectly):

I agree. As an intructor *I* decide if the student has shown that he is capable of diving safely. If it comes down to a yes-no discussion, I will gladly issue a full refund (without a referral of course).

The standards merely state that if you ran a PADI training course, the diver should be certified as a PADI diver and not receive a different certificate.

and were were off an running, with the PADIphiles continuously expressing an incorrect and wrongheaded view that they were permitted, under PADI standards to choose to certify or not certify.

We pointed out to them, with quotes and support from PADI Standards as well other PADI instructors, how PADI instructors are required to certify a student who completes the PADI objectives. So, instead of having what I (and I expect Walter and Burhan and some others) hoped would be in interesting exchange on why our objective list was different than theirs, they dug their heels in in an indefensible position expressing an opinion that was clearly contradicted by the standards themselves. Finally recognizing the pit that they had fallen into they are now expressing incredulity at the idea that there is anything outside of the PADI objectives and that a person who meets the PADI objectives might not be considered a worthy candidate for certification.

To cut to the heart of the matter let us all stipulate that PADI standards do, in fact, require certification of anyone who has demonstrated "PADI Mastery" of the PADI objectives, even if that person failed miserably at some skill or knowledge objective that was not on the PADI list and that the instructor added to the course. OK?

 

[BoltSnap]

Note: Burhan is having a flashback ... twenty years ago, on the GENIE Scuba BBS my handle was, "white.shark."

To me, you are always a "WhiteShark"!!!

Has it really been that long, twenty years?? I can't believe it. I feel so old.


BTW, what is this "Thalassamania on his way to have a cup of coffee with Quero." Is this for real or virtual?

 

[Thalassamania]

To me, you are always a "WhiteShark"!!!

Has it really been that long, twenty years?? I can't believe it. I feel so old.


BTW, what is this "Thalassamania on his way to have a cup of coffee with Quero." Is this for real or virtual?

How long have you been an instructor now?

Woops, need to change it. Quero was in town yesterday, her son lives nearby, and we spent an hour or so chatting.

 

[BoltSnap]

25 years. Oh my God, I am old.

I wish that Quero would stop by Dubai.

 

[Thalassamania]

She was headed for the airport (Kona) to go back to Thailand.

 

[Walter]

If a student has shown mastery in all areas, I can't think of a reason not to certify. An unsafe student would not have displayed mastery in all areas

Not necessarily. Imagine a bright, talented student with a very bad attitude. He aces all the quizes and tests, he gets every skill perfectly every time, but he brags about all the things he's going to do once he gets his c-card. His plans include solo to 300+ feet on an AL 80 right after class is over. In my opinion, this kid isn't safe. I can refuse to certify him based on his attitude alone. If I were teaching a PADI class, I would be required to issue the certification.

PADI instructors are actually allowed to use their judgment as to what mastery is.

I agree with you on this.