Opinions on DSAT TecRec courses

[TSandM]

Only one problem for the OP . . . Although he has access to absolutely SUPERB GUE instruction for Fundies, the price for the class in Mexico is about twice what it is here in Seattle. I have to admit, I was wide-eyed when I saw what the ZG guys are charging for Fundies.

 

[PerroneFord]

Only one problem for the OP . . . Although he has access to absolutely SUPERB GUE instruction for Fundies, the price for the class in Mexico is about twice what it is here in Seattle. I have to admit, I was wide-eyed when I saw what the ZG guys are charging for Fundies.

Well, he could come take it at Ginnie Springs like I did.... you remember what THAT was like dontcha Lynne?

 

[BarryNL]

When I teach this course, I don't just sign off on people. They work to get their skills down and the 12 dives DSAT requires gives them that chance. I don't like a course where you don't know when you will complete it and you have to keep coming back. Whether you have to pay more for it or not, you need to know where you stand at all times, when taking a course.

Sorry, but this is really back to front. No-one should be passing a Tech course until they have the skills to make the dives (and this was my problem with DSAT - that most people seem to pass while still being way off on the skills). I wonder how many people straight off a DSAT tech course could pass GUE-Fundies with a tech rating, let alone GUE Tech1...?

 

[BarryNL]

The DSAT class allows the diver much more flexibility in equipment. He has the infamous bungeed wings with enough lift for 3 sets of doubles, D rings all over the place, QR's everywhere, fancy gadgets hanging here and there, with zip ties holding it all together. He graduated with the DSAT cert without being able to do proper frog, helicopter and back kicks. He couldn't complete a proper valve drill. Holding trim while doing skills was something he had never attempted and was unable to do. He could not do a controlled ascent in blue water. And yet, he believed (and evidently his instructor believed) that he had the qualifications to do deep air dives to 160'.

Bingo! Sounds just like me after I completed the DSAT class. DSAT contains nothing about different kick types - certainly not the back kick which is essential to being able to do controlled ascents with decompression stops, while staying with your team/buddy.

Also, in my DSAT class valve drills, and most other skills, were conducted on the knees on a platform

So glad I found my way to GUE afterwards...

 

[sweatfrog]

Bingo! Sounds just like me after I completed the DSAT class. DSAT contains nothing about different kick types - certainly not the back kick which is essential to being able to do controlled ascents with decompression stops, while staying with your team/buddy.

The frog, scissors, modified flutter and back kicks need to be included with all tech deep courses.

My extended range course didn't include them either, but I certainly have them in my DSAT course.

Also, in my DSAT class valve drills, and most other skills, were conducted on the knees on a platform

Starting on your knees is fine. Then move to doing them while you're neutral and away from the bottom.

When someone takes a course, they don't come out of the course having mastered all of the skills. Diving after you learn something new, will help to engrave that knowledge.

 

[TSandM]

Starting on your knees is fine. Then move to doing them while you're neutral and away from the bottom.

I'm honestly curious . . . Do you think you can take a diver who has to do his valve drills on his knees, and in twelve dives, get him to the point where it is safe for him to do mandatory decompression diving, handling any problems that occur in midwater while maintaining buoyancy control? The reason I ask this is that, with GUE Fundamentals, it often takes someone weeks to months of practice to be able to manage valve shutdowns, air-sharing and bag deployment with accurate buoyancy control, and combining that with keeping a deco schedule, operating in midwater with only a line for reference, and being stressed by whatever issue has come up is a lot to master.

This is why I think everybody ought to take a Fundies or Intro to Tech type class before embarking on any further technical or overhead training. Spend the time to get the basic skills SOLID -- Then learn to do them under stress, in midwater (or in the dark).

 

[sweatfrog]

I'm honestly curious . . . Do you think you can take a diver who has to do his valve drills on his knees, and in twelve dives, get him to the point where it is safe for him to do mandatory decompression diving, handling any problems that occur in midwater while maintaining buoyancy control?

Not always, definitely.

Nor do I think that everyone can do that in the minimum dives that it takes to become a cave diver. Time in the water equals knowledge and skill.

The reason I ask this is that, with GUE Fundamentals, it often takes someone weeks to months of practice to be able to manage valve shutdowns, air-sharing and bag deployment with accurate buoyancy control, and combining that with keeping a deco schedule, operating in midwater with only a line for reference, and being stressed by whatever issue has come up is a lot to master.

I know little too nothing about that course, but that might be a little overkill.

When I taught DM's the old way, it got very expensive for them and was a burnout to boot. They would go to the lake with us two to three weekends a month all summer and by the end of the course, they were about ready to hang it up. It looks like you live closer to diveable water than I do and with prices skyrocketing I want to train people safely, while they are learning and growing. They also need to continue to dive after the class, to at least maintain, if not better their skills.

This is why I think everybody ought to take a Fundies or Intro to Tech type class before embarking on any further technical or overhead training. Spend the time to get the basic skills SOLID -- Then learn to do them under stress, in midwater (or in the dark).

The Tec Deep class is broken down into 2 parts and you need to be successful at the first portion, before you can move to the second. I agree that the basic skills need to be solid. When and what progression you go through to get there is the question.

Cavern is required before moving into cave diving. Since the OP lives in Playa, Cavern and Cave would be a good starting point.

 

[red_barbarian]

The GUE Fundies course presents a lot of material in their way and the emphasis on trim, buoyancy control, and kicks are very important and I got a lot out of the course. The DSAT course I took was a very wreck centric course, which is what I wanted, from an instructor that only does wreck diving. It was also a good course. I also took a IANTD class, and felt class was entirely up to the instructor as the materials were poor. I feel you'll get something different to take away from each agency/instructor that will improve your diving, it's a continuing education process and not a single course will teach you everything in the best way for you. The best agency/instructor for one environment will not be the best in all environments. If you want to be a diver in N. America the GUE courses will serve you well, if you want to be a wreck diver in the remote places where you're lucky to find O2 (forget He), you may want a different outlook and the DSAT course w/ a good instructor may serve you well.

 

[AndyNZ]

I'm honestly curious . . . Do you think you can take a diver who has to do his valve drills on his knees, and in twelve dives, get him to the point where it is safe for him to do mandatory decompression diving, handling any problems that occur in midwater while maintaining buoyancy control?

For what it's worth, valve drills whilst kneeling are actually really hard - harder than when in trim, because the tanks tend to slip further down the back and make them harder to reach. It's really the same entry point as doing surface drills, because it's teaching the mechanics of the valve drill rather than practicalities of not fighting with your kit under water.

12 dives is "about normal" for that level of training. TDI, for example, is between 10 and 14. Advanced Nitrox is 4 dives, Decompression Procedures is 4 dives (6 if the two courses are combined) and Extended Range is 6 dives, though 2 "may" be credited from previous training.

GUE is "four in water sessions" for Fundies, which realistically could be just two actual dives (I know people who have done Fundies without ever going to open water sites, but I think this is an exception rather than a rule). Tech 1 and Tech 2 are both 8 dives, so 16-18 in all.

The difference is that GUE specifies a certain number of dives between each course to build on experience. This isn't precluded in the DSAT or TDI standards, even though it's not explicitly required.

For example, my TDI Advanced Nitrox & Deco Procedures course stretched over about a year in total. The six dives required were done in a three day period, and then I did maybe thirty or so dives of that ilk before the certification was issued.

The people I know who teach DSAT essentially do the same thing - develop people to the point where they pass part I, then bundle them off to do some diving before doing part II.

I know little too nothing about that course, but that might be a little overkill.

Fundies is a good course, an outline on the web is available:

GUE Fundamentals | Global Underwater Explorers

By inference, some GUE instructors are a little more draconian in their insistance for perfection than others. I've never seen the GUE instructor manual, so not sure how the performance requirements are worded or what definitions of "mastery" are given. I certainly feel that there is a level of interpretation either allowed or expected. To be honest, those people who are taking weeks to complete Fundies would probably not be passing a TDI or DSAT course either, provided the instructor had some semblance of integrity.

The nice thing on Fundies is that the instructors (or at least the ones I know) don't put any emphasis on the pass. Quite often the time that people take is because they are told the areas of potentially development and given the time to go away and practice.

 

[zerogravity89]

Hmmm GUE fundies is indeed expensive....but everyone who has taken it says it is worth it....

I'm curious, what did most of you do first, tech diving in ow or cave (for those that have done both)? A question for anyone (GUE, TDI, IANTD etc)