BC manufacturers must be Raking it in...

[cool_hardware52]

It sounds like you agree with me but don't want to admit it. BUT, the scuba industry is not all that competitve and is actually quite closed and as close mined as this thread has become. There are rarely head to head unbiased testing by an uninterested party for scuba gear as there are for many other consumer products. So my question is where is your evidence the industry is compettive? I don't see you providing any of the evidence that you DEMAND of others? You stepped up as an example--where is your evidence? If the industry is so competitiv and creative why do all of the BCs look so much alike, cost so close to the same price with virtually the same fluffy features and even the same color--black.

Nemrod,

There are at least 10 different well known and widely distributed brands of BC available today, and probably 20 more less well known brands.

That alone is proof that there is competition, unless you believe that there is collusion amongst all these suppliers to maintain artificially high prices.

I think it unlikely that Oceanic, and ScubaPro, and Cressi etc. have a secret backroom deal to fix prices.

Why is there so much similarity between brands? I've addressed this too previously. I see three main reasons; 1. form follows function, 2. there are only a few (but certainly more than one) actual manufacturers of inflatables for scuba, 3. There is not a lot of real innovation.

I look at these facts and see a mature industry largely devoid of new ideas, you apparently see a conspiracy.

Don't write any PMs to me insulting me again either as in the past.

We have exchanged maybe 2-3 PM ever. I have never intended to insult you via PM, if I have I apologize. IIRC I have been quite complementary. I have attempted to reason with you but it was evidently a wasted effort.

Tobin

 

[dannobee]

That's not too different from what's occurred in the UK and Europe, club supported compressors are the norm as is online gear sales.

The impediment here in the litigious US is the liability associated with compressors. If you aren't selling fills (quite a few fills BTW) you cannot afford the insurance.

I see home compressors, and in larger population centers, large fill only commercial operations.

Fill stations at or near dive sites will remain, for example Casino Point.

Tobin

I bought a compressor for home use because I couldn't get a proper fill from my LDS. If I consistently leave with my tanks 3-400psi below their rated pressure (and the "+" largely ignored), then there's a problem that, one way or another, I will correct.

Now there's one less reason to visit my LDS. And some of them wonder why their customers left.

 

[Eris Lucan7*]

...select what yor like is,i only get best.

E.L.7*

 

[Nemrod]

Nemrod,


I look at these facts and see a mature industry largely devoid of new ideas, you apparently see a conspiracy.


Tobin

Again, we agree, that is what I am saying. When I look at a dinosaur in the museum I don't need a living one now to know they were once alive. The industry is moribund with some exceptions. Many brands source from the same place as well. Putting a retractor on a BC is not fresh thinking. The OP made a good point. Have a good Christmas. Done. N

 

[MikeFerrara]

Do you have ANY evidence that I'm "undercutting" anybody? We sell through retailers, and direct. How would I have any dealers AT ALL if I was undercutting them?

I expect that there will be fewer, not more LDS's in the next few years, but not because of anything I'm doing. DSS is dealer friendly, no minimum orders etc. We do not permit our goods to be sold by online discounters.

Some are simply doomed, I'm sorry to say. The Professional Dive Centers that survive and thrive will be those that differentiate themselves (good instruction, good service, upgraded fill stations etc.)

Those that persist in giving away below cost the two things that cannot be purchased at LP, training and fills, will face the music.

Tobin

Yes, Yes, Yes.

Just about everything a dive shop does that anyone needs them to provide is used as a loss leader to gain retail sales. Unfortunately, those are also the things that the shop usually isn't much good at (teaching, service and supplying breathing gas). It's probably time they get good at it and charge for it. As a double wammy, they usually don't have deep enough pockets to be good retailers either. What we're left with is a shop that just isn't much good for anything.

 

[redacted]

Nemrod,

There are at least 10 different well known and widely distributed brands of BC available today, and probably 20 more less well known brands.

That alone is proof that there is competition, unless you believe that there is collusion amongst all these suppliers to maintain artificially high prices.

I think it unlikely that Oceanic, and ScubaPro, and Cressi etc. have a secret backroom deal to fix prices.

I don't believe there is any collusion going on. But I still think their competition is more like the way 30 geese in a flock compete rather than 30 Tasmanian Devils.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I don't believe there is any collusion going on. But I still think their competition is more like the way 30 geese in a flock compete rather than 30 Tasmanian Devils.

That might be an apt analogy, but that's what you get in mature industries.

If anyone doubts that these various brands compete just look at DEMA. Booth after Booth after Booth selling BC's. Why did these brands choose to spend $10-20K to expose their goods to retailers if not competition?

Tobin

 

[PhilEllis]

I would like to ask a very serious question of all of you...................

How much innovation and variety do you expect from an industry that had only $444 million in dive equipment retail sales (everything but training and travel) in 2006?

That amount of revenue is about one half of the annual sales that you might see in a single papermill for a year.

That amount of revenue is what would you would find from the aggregate of any 10 Wal Mart stores in the Alabama.

One decent sized hospital in a major city would produce more revenue in a year than the entire scuba industry.

Of that very small number, $444 million in retail sales, about 20% of it was buoyancy vests. Of those buyoancy vests sold, 92% of them were the form meets function, multicolored, gadget buoyancy vests we are all complaining about. Are THAT many people being force fed a product? Are that many consumers wrong? Or, is it possible that THOSE OF USE PARTICIPATING in this thread simply don't have a clear grasp of what the new diver really wants? And after all, it is their money. They get to by what THEY want, not what WE think they should have.

Before you jump and say they are only buying these vests because they are presented no other options, take a minute to think. In my store, I PROMISE you have have a wider variety of vest on display than most stores you have ever seen in person. We show potential customers ALL of them before they purchase. We tell them that ALL of our staff members dive a harness or a soft pack harness. We then let them decide. The largest majority choose the "poodle jacket". Gone are the days when customers have no way to educate themselves. I read an estimate that 87% of scuba divers in the United States visit the internet at least once per day. If they do ANY search at all, they will get this website, which is full of people that think you should only dive in a backplate and wing. So, why do they then come into the scuba store, or on the internet, and purchase the poodle jackets?

We can argue all day about margins, design weaknesses, collusion, or whatever we want to argue about. The bottom line is that SCUBA DIVERS on the aggregate want the current product beyond all others.

Side Note: Don't worry about these guys getting together and forming a cartel to control prices. They can't even sit down with one another for a cup of coffee.

Phil Ellis

 

[cool_hardware52]

I would like to ask a very serious question of all of you...................

How much innovation and variety do you expect from an industry that had only $444 million in dive equipment retail sales (everything but training and travel) in 2006?

Damn little. That why there is value in rewarding the people who do innovate.

Shamlessly knocking off the goods that the true innovators bring to market by flooding the market place with low cost copies is not going to encourage the development of more new ideas.

Tobin

 

[PhilEllis]

Shamlessly knocking off the goods that the true innovators bring to market by flooding the market place with low cost copies is not going to encourage the development of more new ideas.

I honestly don't understand that response. Do you have something specific in mind?

Phil Ellis