BC manufacturers must be Raking it in...

[PhilEllis]

I think that many people REALLY don't know their options when it comes to selecting a BCD. Their are too many small dive shops around the country that don't show the complete picture of what the industry has to offer, but instead only the two or three vendors that they deal with. Too many dive shops force poodle jackets on the consumer because the training agencies say that is the norm... I've had a PADI Course Director tell me that I would fail his IDC if I showed up to class in a backplate/wing and that the only way for me to pass his class is if I used a jacket BCD. This is coming from a person who has NEVER seen my teaching ability OR my in water skill. I've seen this same attitude from many instructors, not only locally, but in many of the places around the world that I've talked to about taking an IDC... This leads me to believe that at least one training agency drives the market by telling their instructors what is and is not appropriate gear to wear while instructing courses.

You might be right about new divers exposure to only select gear...but you are wrong about the reasons. I, more than any other retailer, have put myself out publically ON THIS VERY BOARD to point out the things that are wrong in the industry, and must be changed. In fact, it cost me my largest equipment line.

Dealers show a limited amount of product lines becase they CAN'T show more. The rules are too restrictive and they don't have enough money to display it all. Remember, if a dealer wants to add a wetsuit line that has three styles, mens and womens, 14 sizes, and three colors....the investment is over $40,000! Same with BC jackets.

Most of the BP/W industry resides in third tier manufacturers...those with VERY little market penetration in the aggregate. When a store has limited money to spend, he is forced to put the products in that the largest majority of buyers want. It doesn't much matter WHY they want them...they just want them!

In my store, we do it a little different. We show ALL types of buoyancy to our new customers. We even tell them that our entire staff uses a harness of some sort. So, what is the largest selling BC in our store? The standard jacket. We also have an obligation to teach RENTING students in the gear they will be able to rent. If there are ANY boat operations that offer BP/W for rent, I don't know about them. We teach RENTING students in the gear they are likely to see when they travel.

Many people come onto this board and say "I am thinking about buying all of my gear for my training" EVERYONE says, "Oh no, don't do that!" "Rent and see what you like." If they follow that advice, they will rent standard jackets when they travel and that is what they will like. I find that "don't buy first" advice completely strange. Of our students that PURCHASE before they train, many (about half) purchase harnesses. To advise them not to purchase actually PREVENTS them from ever experiencing that gear the many "think everyone should have."

Oh well, maybe the future will change things.

Phil Ellis

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think that many people REALLY don't know their options when it comes to selecting a BCD. Their are too many small dive shops around the country that don't show the complete picture of what the industry has to offer, but instead only the two or three vendors that they deal with. Too many dive shops force poodle jackets on the consumer because the training agencies say that is the norm... I've had a PADI Course Director tell me that I would fail his IDC if I showed up to class in a backplate/wing and that the only way for me to pass his class is if I used a jacket BCD. This is coming from a person who has NEVER seen my teaching ability OR my in water skill. I've seen this same attitude from many instructors, not only locally, but in many of the places around the world that I've talked to about taking an IDC... This leads me to believe that at least one training agency drives the market by telling their instructors what is and is not appropriate gear to wear while instructing courses.

As much as I enjoy dumping on the agencies, the problem you describe isn't them so much. I don't know about your CD but mine owned a dive shop and his main line was scubapro. He taught diving and texhing as a finction of the shop which was there to make money selling scubpro equipment.

I learned to read the standards such that I knew what had to be done so as not to waste time doing things that didn't need to be done. Getting that class nice and short saves on expensive pool time and every extra nickle you spend giving that loss leader class is profit taken away from selling that scubapro BC. If the student feels like they need more training????there's an AOW class next weekend. There's a little more profit in the con-ed courses and those courses help sell more equipment.

I had one sales rep that tried to talk me into pricing my OW class at $2500. For the $2500 you get all your gear and a "free" class. I told him that I'd be happy to do that if he would teach the class and not expect a pay check. LOL Whether a shop advertises it that way or not, that's what's going on. At least doing it his way, you'd make sure you got the sale. Too often you teach a class at a loss and then the student goes someplace else for equipment. May as well just put your money in a pile and burn it.

Shop owner, run around doing FREE discover scubas all over town, paying to advertise diving and teaching when teaching isn't a profit center. It's all in the hopes of selling a little bit of equipment.

The agency makes out ok. They don't issue student materials or certifications for free. The manufacturers do ok because they aren't giving anything away.

 

[MikeFerrara]

In my store, we do it a little different. We show ALL types of buoyancy to our new customers. We even tell them that our entire staff uses a harness of some sort. So, what is the largest selling BC in our store? The standard jacket. We also have an obligation to teach RENTING students in the gear they will be able to rent. If there are ANY boat operations that offer BP/W for rent, I don't know about them. We teach RENTING students in the gear they are likely to see when they travel.

I think this is a valid concern and students do need to know what they're going to get if renting.

I rarely even care to bother diving if I don't have my own stuff or at least my choice of stff. It's ok if I have time to get in the water and get it all tuned but, if not, I'd rather just do something else.

Many people come onto this board and say "I am thinking about buying all of my gear for my training" EVERYONE says, "Oh no, don't do that!" "Rent and see what you like." If they follow that advice, they will rent standard jackets when they travel and that is what they will like. I find that "don't buy first" advice completely strange. Of our students that PURCHASE before they train, many (about half) purchase harnesses. To advise them not to purchase actually PREVENTS them from ever experiencing that gear the many "think everyone should have."



Phil Ellis

New diver, more than anyone, benefit from consistancy. They can not and will not get skills squared away when they can't dive the same rig twice. There's just too many things that are changing and they won't get a handle on it.

I think we sometimes forget (if we ever knew) what they're up against. Last summer I was out of town visiting family. My family owns a marina and a storm had busted loose some dock anchors. My cousin usually dives to take care of that stuff but he wasn't feeling well so I offered to go down and find them.

Of course, I didn't have any gear with me so I just grabed some old gear he had laying around in back...some old jacket, a wet suit that almost fit and a weight belt (I know about how much weight I need). I'll skip the gory details by just saying that if had been a vacation dive, I would not have been having fun. If I was a new diver who was that out of balance and uncomfortable it probably would have been less painful to just spit my reg out and drown.

 

[The Chairman]

And most of them described all the other BCs available as "junk". Too funny! Or needs! This tripe about the BP&Wings being the "optimal" or "only" solution is myopic at best. It sure makes you sound important though!

Do the people that design this junk dive? What kind of diving do they do and are they any good at it?

I should just rest my case on this remark alone!

Why is it, and this is starting to get "off topic", that we feel everyone must dive what we dive or it's "junk"? Why must everyone else use the same paradigm we use for diving or somehow they are inherently flawed?

Heck, I dive Tobin's gear all the time: I love a BP&Wings. I also can dive in a Zeagle Stiletto or my Oceanic Chute II. For me, the tank is the issue. I am very comfortable with a steel 120, but I don't look down on those who dive with AL80s!

When I ran a student machine shop for the College of Architecture for the University of Florida, I would teach students how to use the band saw (among other tools). Then I would just listen to the tool as they worked. Quite often I would remind the student "It's not the tool!" So it is with diving. Gear won't make up for poor skills and excellent skills will make any type of gear look great! IOW, "junk" is in the eye of the beholder! If you don't dive it, it's probably "junk".

 

[Coalcracker]

I should just rest my case on this remark alone!

Why is it, and this is starting to get "off topic", that we feel everyone must dive what we dive or it's "junk"? Why must everyone else use the same paradigm we use for diving or somehow they are inherently flawed?

Heck, I dive Tobin's gear all the time: I love a BP&Wings. I also can dive in a Zeagle Stiletto or my Oceanic Chute II. For me, the tank is the issue. I am very comfortable with a steel 120, but I don't look down on those who dive with AL80s!

When I ran a student machine shop for the College of Architecture for the University of Florida, I would teach students how to use the band saw (among other tools). Then I would just listen to the tool as they worked. Quite often I would remind the student "It's not the tool!" So it is with diving. Gear won't make up for poor skills and excellent skills will make any type of gear look great! IOW, "junk" is in the eye of the beholder! If you don't dive it, it's probably "junk".

NetDoc; Great post. My first BC was a Nemrod front mount, followed by a SQ BCP, on to various SQ models, DR, etc. my fav is still the simple SQ BCP-a simple wing, 33lbs lift, on a hard BP, clean and easy. Whatever BC, rental at resorts, or garage choice from home, most important was the tank, weight distribution, overall trim etc.. As you say: "Gear won't make up for poor skills and excellent skills will make any type of gear look great!"

 

[TSandM]

I have to say that the "minimum order" stuff baffles me. I went to my LDS to buy an O2 analyzer. I knew which one I wanted. The shop was not a dealer for the company, but did call them to see if they could order the item for me. The response was that they would have to establish a dealership relationship with a minimum $1500 order, which obviously wasn't worth it to the shop to sell me an O2 analyzer. So I bought it directly from the manufacturing company, which is maybe better for them, but certainly reduces the visibility of their products in a touch-and-feel environment.

Inventory is expensive, which is why, I think, so many dive shops don't have much. But then, of course, they've lost the big advantage over online sales. If I have to buy something I've never seen, why buy it from the shop at 30% higher cost, when I can order it on line and send it back myself if it doesn't fit?

 

[SparticleBrane]

Minimum order values, MAP crap...who comes up with this mess? The scuba industry would be better off without it, and just go to pure competition.

"You want 5 BCs? Sure, we'll send them out tomorrow" is much better than "You need to buy $40,000 worth of our products, become a dealer, and then sell things at a price that we set".

 

[Thalassamania]

Minimum order values, MAP crap...who comes up with this mess? The scuba industry would be better off without it, and just go to pure competition.

"You want 5 BCs? Sure, we'll send them out tomorrow" is much better than "You need to buy $40,000 worth of our products, become a dealer, and then sell things at a price that we set".

I have to agree, bulk pricing is the way to reward the shops that do better with a given line.

I think a lot of this came about to squeeze the instructor selling gear out of the garage out of business, which in my day was the industry Bugbear that seems to now be Internet sales.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I have to say that the "minimum order" stuff baffles me.

Large opening orders, and reorders is used as a means to exclude other brands from competing.

If a shop has to invest $10-40K in a particular brand / line of goods, and needs to generate $XX dollars to be able to reorder they have a huge disincentive to offer any other brand.

Few LDS can afford to carry multiple lines of competitive products.

Lets say you want to open a dive shop. You need to be able offer regulators, BC's exposure suits, masks, fins, instruments and tanks.

It helps if you can offer a name brand regulator, but to be able to do so the regulator company will require (via opening order requirements) that you also carry their BC's and Instruments, exposure suits etc.

Once you pony up there are scant few dollars left in the "open to buy budget" to stock other BC's, or other Instruments, particularly if these "others" also demand a large opening order.

Some will argue that's done to ensure the customer has access to the complete line offered by a given brand, and that the store staff be familiar with the entire line. Maybe, but the real reason is to limit competition.

Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

Minimum order values, MAP crap...who comes up with this mess? The scuba industry would be better off without it, and just go to pure competition.

"You want 5 BCs? Sure, we'll send them out tomorrow" is much better than "You need to buy $40,000 worth of our products, become a dealer, and then sell things at a price that we set".

Things are changing, faster than many are aware. The internet is leveling the playing field.

Tobin