Cookie vs REM vs TEM

[Tonnerre de Brest]

I use both cookies and REMs:
REMs for navigation (T’s, to tie jumps, etc)
Cookies for equipment marking (reels and spools).

You indeed have to make sure you place your REM in the right direction to avoid any confusion (my instructor highly insisted on that and put it in the wrong direction a lot on purpose during my course in order for us to always stay aware).

 

[lukeb]

Follow on question for those of you using REMs:

When you tie in for jumps, do you still use the systems arrows (if present), or do you place a REM and tie into that instead?

I used to do both depending on what was there at the jump, but I have since switched to placing a REM every time (away from the system arrows) so that my jump procedure is the same every time, regardless of situation. This has made it a lot more straightforward with less chance for errors on my part. (I read this in an article online and it made a lot of sense).

Now when returning I simply go from REM to REM until I reach the exit. I also numbered my REMs, which gives me additional confirmation I am going the route I think I am.

 

[rddvet]

Follow on question for those of you using REMs:

When you tie in for jumps, do you still use the systems arrows (if present), or do you place a REM and tie into that instead?

I used to do both depending on what was there at the jump, but I have since switched to placing a REM every time (away from the system arrows) so that my jump procedure is the same every time, regardless of situation. This has made it a lot more straightforward with less chance for errors on my part. (I read this in an article online and it made a lot of sense).

Now when returning I simply go from REM to REM until I reach the exit. I also numbered my REMs, which gives me additional confirmation I am going the route I think I am.

I always put a rem on the outbound side of a jump no matter what is there. I never tie into my marker. I know there are very big differences in opinion and don't want to start a discussion on it here, but my cave 1 and 2 instructors taught not to tie into the marker.

 

[Manatee Diver]

My concern is when people place arrows on a line that points away from the nearest exit. For instance, if someone swam from P1 along the Olsen line up and jumped over to the crossover tunnel. If they used an arrow to mark "their" exit at P1, it would be countermanding arrows on the line and could send someone in an emergency 1300' in one way when Olsen is only 200' from that jump. Cookies, clothespins, or REMs are a better solution.

This is the primary case for REMs for me. I remember doing the Olsen Bypass, first you had the jump where I needed to disagree with the system arrows and then when I got to the Olsen Bypass jump there was no markers and I wasn't sure what would be the system arrow direction at this point, I just cookied it which I don't like. After that I started carrying and using REMs instead of arrows.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

1) Saw the title of the thread
2) Clinched my butt checks in fear before clicking
3) Read the comments
4) Ordered Xanax

 

[rjack321]

I always put a rem on the outbound side of a jump no matter what is there. I never tie into my marker. I know there are very big differences in opinion and don't want to start a discussion on it here, but my cave 1 and 2 instructors taught not to tie into the marker.

Sometimes you pretty much have to if the jump isn't perpendicular to the main line. Or if there's no mainline arrow to hold the jump line in place.

 

[steinbil]

1) Saw the title of the thread
2) Clinched my butt checks in fear before clicking
3) Read the comments
4) Ordered Xanax

I think the discussion has been pretty civil and informative so far. The only thing everyone seems to put down is the idea of Team markers - do you disagree with that?

By the way, I'm not really participating in the discussion since I'm a baby cave diver without much experience, so I can't really contribute with anything other than saying I was trained with cookies and not REMs in my Cave 1 class. I'm here to learn and to hear about other cave divers rationale for choosing their procedures.

 

[LFMarm]

I think the discussion has been pretty civil and informative so far. The only thing everyone seems to put down is the idea of Team markers - do you disagree with that?

I have done both, depending on team, dive plan and type of cave. Advantage of team markers is that you can carry far less for long dives with complex navigation (eg CC dives in Mexico with DPV). As long as the rules are clear to everyone in the team, I feel it’s as safe as diving with personal markers.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

Team marking…
Leader places a REM showing the exit
Second diver looks at the rem and agrees with the placement.
Third diver should be doing the same but the opportunity for complacency is creeping in.

Individual markers…
Every diver places a marker. They all look at the line. Touch the line. Look at other markers.
Exiting…
Find your marker. Confirm your exit. Move a short distance ahead. Wait for the next team member to do the same.
Safer. Faster exit if the team decides that when exiting you confirm your marker - pick it up and go.

 

[lukeb]

I'm here to learn and to hear about other cave divers rationale for choosing their procedures

@steinbil this was the article I referenced earlier. It gives the clearest descriptions of line marking and jump protocols I have found written anywhere. It is written with Mexico Caves in mind, but it applies to Florida caves too (the author explains the differences).

Zen and the Art of Mexican Cave Navigation

Do you know your arrows, cookies, REMS, TEMS, presence, personal and team markers? Single or in combination? Jump protocols? If your answer to any of these is ‘Nada’ you may find yourself lost in a Mexican cave. Fortunately, underground explorer and instructor Natalie Gibb has agreed to provide...

indepthmag.com

Since reading this I now tie into my REM every time like I mentioned earlier, and I also mark my reel on the far side of the jump with a REM too. It is more markers to place (two per jump), but it gives me a lot of confidence in my navigation decisions on the way out.