General advice to new scuba divers: do not waste your money!

[ginti]

I have G260, S600, R190, R195, C370 and others and there is definitely difference in performance between the R190/195 and the higher end regulators (ALL are tuned to mfg. specs). I have these regs. in my dive school's training equipment fleet and I get to play with them frequently. Myself and my students can tell the difference especially in more advanced courses going deeper than 20m and in more challenging conditions. I always make sure that they are all tuned properly but still there is difference in performance. The difference is more apparent when going deeper and/or working harder. Students who buy regulators later after they are certified go for the better regulators on their own after they have had the chance to try the different regs. in the course.

I agree, but, as you said, it is really important at depths greater than 20m... I mentioned in my post the limit of OW for this reason There are technical reasons behind the effect of depth, but I am not qualified to discuss them - maybe you are? If I recall correctly, it has to do with the ability of high-performance regulators to manage high-density gases better, but I am not sure, and I do not know why they can...

Anyway, I am not saying that the difference cannot be noticed at shallow depths; I am saying that - in my experience - at shallower depths is often perceived as so small (or not perceived) that people don't want to invest money in better regulators. The situation changes when people go deeper regularly, but this is not the majority of divers in my experience. However, you being an instructor, surely have a better grasp of what's happening out there: do you think most divers go regularly enough deeper than 20m to justify this purchase? How many of your students go for this type of regulator?

 

[travisfull]

I agree, but, as you said, it is really important at depths greater than 20m... I mentioned in my post the limit of OW for this reason There are technical reasons behind the effect of depth, but I am not qualified to discuss them - maybe you are? If I recall correctly, it has to do with the ability of high-performance regulators to manage high-density gases better, but I am not sure, and I do not know why they can...

Anyway, I am not saying that the difference cannot be noticed at shallow depths; I am saying that - in my experience - at shallower depths is often perceived as so small (or not perceived) that people don't want to invest money in better regulators. The situation changes when people go deeper regularly, but this is not the majority of divers in my experience. However, you being an instructor, surely have a better grasp of what's happening out there: do you think most divers go regularly enough deeper than 20m to justify this purchase? How many of your students go for this type of regulator?

« The limit of 20mt of OW », I guess thats the real problem here and the main reason for advocating high performance regs: the limit for recreational diving is crazily deep (40mt) and people with the deep specialty of ADV OWD, so maybe 20 dives if we are lucky, can go and will go there because basically all diving centers in the world let you go there…but 35-40 metres start to be an important depth at which you need proper equipment.

 

[berndo]

If I recall correctly, it has to do with the ability of high-performance regulators to manage high-density gases better, but I am not sure, and I do not know why they can...

Not really. The uncompensated stages like the MK2 will increase breathing resistance slightly when the tank pressure get lower. It's noticable.
The R190 type stage can be adjusted to breath as well as the balanced ones but need readjusting after a while. The balanced once don't need that as much since you can just turn the noob.

 

[ginti]

« The limit of 20mt of OW », I guess thats the real problem here and the main reason for advocating high performance regs: the limit for recreational diving is crazily deep (40mt) and people with the deep specialty of ADV OWD, so maybe 20 dives if we are lucky, can go and will go there because basically all diving centers in the world let you go there…but 35-40 metres start to be an important depth at which you need proper equipment.

We are speaking differently because we have different ideas of what proper equipment is To you, it is comfort; to me, comfort is nice to have but not a necessary prerequisite - not at all.

Anyway, as you can see, we are going into a level of technicality above my knowledge, so there is no reason to continue. However, keep in mind that a proper suggestion of some equipment because of some technical features (EG VIVA, Venturi effect, balancement, etc.) makes sense only if you explain what these features are changing in the diving - and, to me, your explanations are not clear yet, but maybe it is just me.

Anyway, dive safe, maybe one day we will meet in the center of Italy to dive!

 

[ginti]

Not really. The uncompensated stages like the MK2 will increase breathing resistance slightly when the tank pressure get lower. It's noticable.

This is balanced vs unbalanced first or second stages, right?

I recall something else that they explained to me about regulators like the G260 being able to manage more gas compared to lower-end regulators - maybe was it the volume of gas per unit of time? Or maybe I am just making confusion, which is quite probable...

 

[berndo]

This is balanced vs unbalanced first or second stages, right?

I recall something else that they explained to me about regulators like the G260 being able to manage more gas compared to lower-end regulators - maybe was it the volume of gas per unit of time? Or maybe I am just making confusion, which is quite probable...

I doubt that anyone can overbreath a reg even if they have lower capacity to deliver gas on paper.

I'm not sure I understand the question. A mk20/r190 combo is not going to breath worse with low tank pressure but a mk2/r190 will due to the design of the first stage.

The G250 types have a balance chamber to adjust the lever spring and the r190 just have a lever. They can be tuned for super easy breathing too but you have to readjust earlier. Can be done with just a screw driver though.
The original DIR people, your group's OG overlords used r190 type regs as backups for deep diving. For some reason people switched to less simple regs for backup regs since.

Most of the marketing texts about regs are BS. That's why people get the cheap xtx50/dst/ds4 Apeks regs vs the 'premium' ones. The xtx200 or a700 type regs are for the most part only bought by newer divers or people who are willing to pay extra for looks.

 

[BoltSnap]

Why so many different models? Just pick the best and use only it.

These regulators were accumulated over years of teaching where I am now. Sometimes I find certain models in the local market but not other models and different models at different times. I also like to try different regulators at different times to test and to give the opportunity for my students to try different models and brands because they won't have the opportunity to try these models in this God forsaken country. What I listed in my post above is actually what has remained in my stock. I had other brands/models from Mares, Cressi and AL but I got rid of these brands and chose to use SP and Atomic only for various reasons.

I do use the best, Atomic and SP.

Which regulator do your students buy?

Usually MK25/s600, MK17/C370 is a recent model they buy now.

Can you tell the difference between Mk2, Mk11, Mk19, Mk25 each connected to a G260, just by breathing them?

If they are tuned to mfg. specs, you can't really tell when sitting on a chair on surface. Almost just as difficult to tell in the pool swimming laps or just laying on the bottom. The difference comes later in openwater conditions with increased depth, current and other environmental conditions that make it more challenging u/w.

For myself, I am like an experienced chef or food expert who can tell you the ingredients of a certain dish by just tasting it and not knowing these ingredients beforehand. I can tell the subtleties in differences based on use in openwater. The difference between G260 and S600 is so subtle but the difference between these two and an Atomic second stage is more obvious (all tuned to mfg specs of course). Try any of those with a Cressi regulator, it is like driving a Hyundai and then driving an Audi or BMW/Mercedes.

 

[ginti]

I doubt that anyone can overbreath a reg even if they have lower capacity to deliver gas on paper.
I'm not sure I understand the question. A mk20/r190 combo is not going to breath worse with low tank pressure but a mk2/r190 will due to the design of the first stage.

I don't have a question; I recall something they told me at a recreational shop about the gas volume or a similar metric, but as I told you, I might not remember well. My experience with regulators is close to zero, so I most likely do not recall well what they told me. Let's just forget it

BTW, I am sure it's almost impossible to overbreath a regulator.

The G250 types have a balance chamber to adjust the lever spring and the r190 just have a lever. They can be tuned for super easy breathing too but you have to readjust earlier. Can be done with just a screw driver though.
The original DIR people, your group's OG overlords used r190 type regs as backups for deep diving. For some reason people switched to less simple regs for backup regs since.

I am aware of the choices of the original WKPP people Their reasoning is discussed in another thread here on SB.

Most of the marketing texts about regs are BS. That's why people get the cheap xtx50/dst/ds4 Apeks regs vs the 'premium' ones. The xtx200 or a700 type regs are for the most part only bought by newer divers or people who are willing to pay extra for looks.

Totally agree. To give an idea about Scubapro, MK25EVO+A700 is 290€ more expensive than MK25EVO+G260 in Italy; I wonder whether it could be argued that the A700 breaths so much better than the G260. What do you think about it?

Not to speak of xtx50 vs. xtx200. I have never tried them, but what they told me is crazy... basically, the most critical difference is only aesthetics. Do you confirm?

Not to mention carbon and titanium...

 

[berndo]

Totally agree. To give an idea about Scubapro, MK25EVO+A700 is 290€ more expensive than MK25EVO+G260 in Italy; I wonder whether it could be argued that the A700 breaths so much better than the G260. What do you think about it?

Not to speak of xtx50 vs. xtx200. I have never tried them, but what they told me is crazy... basically, the most critical difference is only aesthetics. Do you confirm?

Marketing people will tell you that it's good to have a premium segment even when it doesn't sell much.

When you only have 2 options, a 'cheap' (g250) and an 'expensive' (S600) option in the same category, many people tend to buy the cheap option, as they are basically the same.

When you add a 'premium' (A700) option, more people tend to buy the middle, as it makes the 'expensive' (now middle) price more attractive in comparision to the premium... that way you can push S600 sales and sell some A700 ones as a bonus.

IMHO it looks like that's what they are doing.

 

[Belzelbub]

I doubt that anyone can overbreath a reg even if they have lower capacity to deliver gas on paper.

Agreed. It will be really hard to overbreathe just about any regulator today. They will deliver air. The difference, though, will be in the work it will take to breathe from that regulator. That's a separate measurement, though and there isn't necessarily a correlation between max capacity and work of breathing.