Question Teaching OW with backplate and wing from the very beginning ?

[The Chairman]

Trim and buoyancy are knowledge and skill issues. Never throw gear at a skill issue. I can be neutral and in complete trim without a bladder (wing) and have done so many times, often irking a few instructors when I do. Moreover, I've seen peeps in BP&W and yes, even side-mount silt a place out.

There's lots of gear out there that works perfectly if it's fitted correctly. You learned something when you changed over to BP&Wings if you got "instantly" better. You were probably convinced that it was the magic pill, and like any great placebo, it worked. Learn the physics and skills behind trim and neutral buoyancy and you can dive anything and look great.

 

[Boarderguy]

Trim was just more natural with the BP for me. My single cam jacket is limited on weight locations and the need for a belt in PNW diving made it more pronounced. I haven't been a seahorse in a long time, but to drop down and just be flat with no effort was great. BP/W isn't for everyone nor is it the cure all, but it did give me a better feeling underwater. Now my barely competent wife isn't capable of a surface swim with back inflate. I wouldn't expect her to dive a wing right now. Jackets are fantastic for surface swim because you can be a little floaty and not pushed forward in the water.

 

[The Chairman]

Now my barely competent wife isn't capable of a surface swim with back inflate.

I swim on my back on the surface unless I brought a snorkel. As I said, I swim on my back!

Trim was just more natural with the BP for me.

You mean, like a crutch?

Depending on the wing, weight can be better distributed. Weight distribution is hardly ever addressed, and that's the real difference. Also, if you dive with a lot of needless weight, it exacerbates the problem. Usually, people are trying to get to a minimum weight when they get into a BP&W, so it's self-correcting.

I really don't have a problem with anyone diving a BP&W. But I would rather you learn the physics of trim/buoyancy and then learn to apply that to any gear you're wearing. I usually dive a hybrid (Express Tech by Zeagle), which is a soft BP. Most just think of it as a back inflate, unless there's no bladder on it.

 

[johndiver999]

Primary is a 40" line with a 110° swivel. For me it is routed under my arm and is perfect length. To donate it goes over my shoulder and extends beyond my arm length for them to use. I then breathe off my air 2 and ensure the pony is on. We're going up regardless at that point so it's just of matter of how long we swim shoulder to shoulder or just grab arms and hit our stop and then the surface. The pony is for me and me only. IDGAF, Piss Off Not Yours. If my 100 or 120 runs out sharing air then you can do a CESA from wherever we're at and I'll breathe off my pony for the next 10 minutes to ensure my safety. Although if I'm that low on the main tank the dive is nearly over anyways and I'll just breathe off the pony instead of my air 2.

People are trying to help you here. It is good that you have answers and have thought about some of this stuff.

An octopus on a necklace has a distinct advantage that the second stage should not be able to freeflow without you realizing it. You have voluntarily added complexity of wearing the pony bottle inverted, you increase the chance of flooding the pony reg if it leaks out and you don't notice it. Wearing it upside does has some advantages, and I definitely don't think it is wrong to wear it upside down, but I am pretty sure that it is best to have a back mounted pony reg located on your neck.

If you really only have less than 50 dives (as listed on your profile) you should realize you have not been doing this for long and your preferences might well change (if you experiment).

Your whole diatribe about the pony bottle is mine alone and if WE drain the main tank in an emergency, then it is the victim's problem and he gets nothing is NOT a good plan. You may well be "married" to the victim due to his proximity, and unless you are very strong, he could over power you, rip your reg out and rip your mask off and punch you. That is something that you very much want to avoid; rather than taking a macho attitude about the situation. Any person, even a small woman can rip the regulator from your mouth if you are only holding it with your teeth.

The primary way I view the strategy for having a primary, an air 2 and a pony might be a little more flexible and probably less dangerous... In an air share situation, I will probably do exactly as you say.. go to the air 2 and offer the primary. It is very simple and won't require you to locate and fiddle with a valve you can't see. You can start the ascent and watch the remaining pressure, but if it looks like the main tank is going to fall short (from two excited people), then it may be highly beneficial, for you to abandon the air 2 early and go to the pony - presumably leaving enough air in the primary to get the victim up. I've been in the scenario of sharing air from the deep in a real emergency and you might be surprised how much air a panicked victim can suck from a tank.

What benefit do you derive by deliberately allowing you both to drain the main tank? Why would your plan involve this scenario as a first option? Under this scenario you also lose the option to inflate the BC from the tank. You know the pony should be big enough to get you to the surface.

 

[Boarderguy]

Your whole diatribe about the pony bottle is mine alone and if WE drain the main tank in an emergency, then it is the victim's problem and he gets nothing is NOT a good plan. You may well be "married" to the victim due to his proximity, and unless you are very strong, he could over power you, rip your reg out and rip your mask off and punch you. That is something that you very much want to avoid; rather than taking a macho attitude about the situation. Any person, even a small woman can rip the regulator from your mouth if you are only holding it with your teeth.

The primary way I view the strategy for having a primary, an air 2 and a pony might be a little more flexible and probably less dangerous... In an air share situation, I will probably do exactly as you say.. go to the air 2 and offer the primary. It is very simple and won't require you to locate and fiddle with a valve you can't see. You can start the ascent and watch the remaining pressure, but if it looks like the main tank is going to fall short (from two excited people), then it may be highly beneficial, for you to abandon the air 2 early and go to the pony - presumably leaving enough air in the primary to get the victim up. I've been in the scenario of sharing air from the deep in a real emergency and you might be surprised how much air a panicked victim can suck from a tank.

What benefit do you derive by deliberately allowing you both to drain the main tank? Why would your plan involve this scenario as a first option? Under this scenario you also loose the option to inflate the BC from the tank. You know the pony should be big enough to get you to the surface.

Thanks and I agree with 90% of what you're saying. I'm typing this on a phone so I try to keep my paragraphs and explanations short. Like I said, I dive either a 100 or 120 99% of the time unless the shop hasn't got them filed then I go to a steel 80. I didn't explain in the sharing situation that while we're going up in also watching air. If it gets down to ~ 600 lbs then I'm going to my pony. 600 lbs gives me quite a long time above 30 ft and more than enough to do a stop and then ascend. My pony is a 13 that lives at about 3300 psi and I tip it off with my 120 every few dives to keep it up there. That tank gives me 15 minutes of active swimming at 12-15 feet. More than enough for me to execute a stop while my buddy is breathing down the last 5-8 minutes in the main IF we're still down. My profile isn't accurate and I haven't logged dives in years.

Edit: hit post by accident. In the end every piece of sht in the ocean has hit the fan for both me and my buddy to be OOA. We've already ascended and cleared our stop so a CESA is our last resort. Sit down and do a dive plan with me and you'll understand me better. So much is lost in text.

 

[The Chairman]

A 13 cf pony? Why? NVM.

40cfm is my minimum, and I would hand it to the OOA diver. Never had to do that. In fact, I've never been OOA since I started using an SPG. I don't think I'll start now. I carry a 40 for bail out or as a redundancy while solo diving.

 

[The Chairman]

Caveat: I have donated gas, but have never run out. I'm not sure how this relates to learning on a BP&W.

 

[Roger Hobden]

Trim and buoyancy are knowledge and skill issues. Never throw gear at a skill issue.

I'm sure you are 100 % percent correct.

OTOH, I do believe that I have read somewhere (maybe on Scubaboard ? ) that not all dive agencies/schools/shops/instructors teach proper trim and buoyancy to OW students.

Having a more forgiving equipment might give the students a head start ? Just wondering ...

 

[Boarderguy]

A 13 cf pony? Why? NVM.

40cfm is my minimum, and I would hand it to the OOA diver. Never had to do that. In fact, I've never been OOA since I started using an SPG. I don't think I'll start now. I carry a 40 for bail out or as a redundancy while solo diving.

This is off topic sooo... I back mount my 13 pony because I got it in a lot I purchased in 2011 or 2012 and it works fine for my diving. No need to replace something that will and has got me from my usual hard bottom of 100-105. I also stay with rec limits with no immediate plans to go for deco and potentially more back gas for safe ascents. I train with it and provided I keep my ascent rate within current science I can make it to my safety stop and stay there for 3-5 minutes and then surface. A 19 would be better suited but I work with what I have and pump it up to 3300 ish to make up for the smaller size.

I've donated once before with whatever rented reg hose length and it was fine. That was back when buddy breathing was standard and it was only from 40 ft. I've never been OOA, but have run my J-valve tanks down to the hard breath and then went back up after pulling the handle.

Thanks for the

 

[The Chairman]

Having a more forgiving equipment might give the students a head start ? Just wondering ...

Just learn the physics behind it and it becomes quite easy.

OTOH, I do believe that I have read somewhere (maybe on Scubaboard ? ) that not all dive agencies/schools/shops/instructors teach proper trim and buoyancy to OW students.

Yes! This is the problem. It amazes me how many instructors do not have a clue about the basic physics involved. Most can comprehend Boyles law, but they fail to incorporate thrust into the mix. They often demonstrate the "Budha pose" as evidence of "mastery" when it's the antithesis of trim. BTW, Boyles law really stands for Breathe or Your Lungs Explode, Stupid!

If you teach students to rely on a BP&W to be trim, then they are going to have a hard time if/when they use a rental BC at a resort. Why not teach the knowledge and skills outright?