GUE gear config

[Celt]

Thankfully I've never refused to dive with a fellow diver. I'd have a quiet chat with them and explain what needs to happen. I was paired up with an absolute beginner on a body search in very poor conditions, he was a friend of the family who felt he had to help and I could see he wasn't up to it. We dropped in at the shot and I went over everything with him on the surface. I told him I just wanted him to stay at the weight at the start of the search line and dont move just watch that the line is turning on the pin. I competed the circular search and reeled back in to my mate job done. He was happy and I was happy. For me to refuse would simply mean I didn't have the skill and confidence to handle a new diver and as for what he was wearing, I couldn't care less if he had his wedding suit on. I'm thankful the brilliant divers that I've meet never refused to dive with me and were only to happy to help a beginner.

 

[wKkaY]

What do people think of GUE?

I took my GUE Fundamentals part 1 class (theory part) last night, pool session is this weekend, and basically took away all my gear is wrong / not safe / needs to be replaced lol. I'm diving with jacket BC, Atomic SS1 secondary, no octopus - I'm pretty comfortable in the water (~250 dives now), think my buoyancy and trim is decent, and haven't had any issues donating air the one time I had a out of gas buddy. I am trying the rental backplate/wing and long hose for the pool sessions - but it just seems so much clunkier and less streamlined than my current setup with the SS1? I do find my trim is not the best with the frontal weight pockets so am considering buying the backplate/wing if I like it, but I'm just not sold on the long hose. My instructor also said any wing with bungees is really bad because you can't distribute the air yourself, which is relevant when diving side mount / multiple tanks etc.

My reason for signing up for GUE was mostly to get better at the different kicks, I can't do a backward or helicopter kick, and my GUE-obsessed friend insisted that it'll improve my buoyancy and trim massively. But after listening to the theory yesterday it seems a lot of why GUE does things the way they do is to set up you for later tech / cave / wreck diving, which I have no interest in. I get the standardisation point and not having to relearn stuff as you progress, but if I already know I don't like cave / wreck and have no interest in tech, does GUE school of thought still have safety / efficiency benefits for regular recreational scuba?

Hi jjmochi, even if the DIR/gear philosophy that comes with the fundies "package" doesn't jive with you, I think you can still get value from completing the course.

As you posted that you're into muck photography, two safety and efficiency benefits I can think of are:
- Mental bandwidth. In fundies you'll be put in intense situations by task loading you and repeatedly raising the performance bar. As you develop these fundamental skills, it frees your mind for more important functions like photo composition, situational awareness, problem solving, etc.
- Hovering. You're using a pointer as a crutch now. Being able to hover frees you one hand with which you can change settings, adjust strobe position, etc. In fundies you get a crash course on this. What happens is that you're put into formation with your coursemates while doing exercises together; to do that you need to apply the different styles of kicks, maintain depth, and stay in horizontal trim.

I don't have many videos of myself but here's one that happens to incorporate all of the helicopter, back kick, and hovering. Against a backdrop wall of jacks in Sipadan


Have fun in your pool sessions this weekend!

 

[Ayisha]

I have read so many posts that when people ask about improving their skills there is a flood of "you should take Fundies it will improve your skills more than any class". So now we have somebody who is taking the class to improve their skills and you are stating they should have their skills exceptional before taking the class? Which one is it?

Putting the work into a Fundies class wholeheartedly with an open mind will improve likely anyone's skills, no matter what skill level they're starting at.

Notice that I stated only exceptional buoyancy and trim, not exceptional buoyancy and trim while task loaded. The OP described his buoyancy and trim as "decent" and a buddy recommended Fundies because it would "drastically improve" his buoyancy and trim. Now he's adding new unfamiliar equipment for this weekend's Part 1.

If someone's buoyancy and trim is decent or less to an observer while just diving, then when task loaded, their performance will likely suffer more than someone who is going in with exceptional buoyancy and trim. Both will be task loaded up to and slightly beyond their comfort level. Both will likely improve a lot.

I've sat in on some Fundies courses in addition to my own 8 years ago and invariably seen either an unprepared student who is overwhelmed by the math/new information or a student with one or more new types of equipment who is so focused on the unfamiliar equipment that they can't adequately learn the new skills. I haven't seen particularly the latter scenario go very well yet, IMHO, and the students had to have some coaching/practice post-course.

Hence, I always suggest that people do all the readings and problem sets, get familiar with any new gear u/w, and practice buoyancy, trim, static trim, and graduated ascents/descents prior to the pool/ow sessions. BTW, my instructor advised our class to practice exactly those skills above prior to our Fundies class. The students who followed those instructions were less shell-shocked, more receptive to the new skill acquisition, and retained their buoyancy and trim more effectively while task loaded than the ones who didn't.

The Fundies card probably shouldn't be the only goal, but if I put out what is a significant amount of money to me, I prefer to stack the deck in my favour, in addition to coming away a more proficient diver with enhanced situational awareness and team building skills. YMMV

 

[jjmochi]

Some of you are reading too much into my words. My description of “decent buoyancy and trim” is my own assessment. I have seen photographers who literally do not move an inch in current and remain rock steady- that is my standard for “good”. The “massive improvements” my friend and instructor were referring to were generalizations - neither of them have dived with me before recommending the course. They were just 100% sure everyone will get something out of it.

I did my pool sessions and the instructor evaluation is “good (+/-0.5m) bouyancy and trim (+/-10 degrees) with no task loading”. We were in a 1.5m pool too so harder than if we had deeper waters. With task loading I was able to maintain buoyancy no issues but trim has room for improvement. Some of this is definitely due to lack of familiarity with the long hose but it was in no way debilitating to the point of “you shouldn’t even try”.

I’m sold on the backplate and wing, already placed an order from the instructor. I’m still not sold on the long hose- and I think that’s ok. It wasn’t too hard to manage but it is more work than my current setup, and I like my current Atomic reg and SS1. I will take away some of the teachings from the course - and had definitely had a ton of help in getting the right adjustments to the new bc which made a big difference in trim. But other small things like you always have to wear your dive watch on the right (cuz a light/cord that I don’t have needs to go on the left), always have to unclip spg to check even tho I can see it fine without unclipping etc. felt awkward. I’m sure if I started with GUE from the get go all of this would be fine, but 250 dives in I’m used to a certain setup and if it doesn’t make my diving easier NOW I don’t really want to make adjustments NOW for things that I could/maybe/possibly want to expand to in the future.

It also turns out I don’t have full range of motion on my left ankle, hence why I could not do backward/helicopter kick evenly when I tried before. So more PT to do on land and need to consciously slow down and focus on the left ankle in the water. This is something I would not have figured out on my own, I always thought I was just not kicking right despite watching videos.

So it was about $600 for part 1 including the equipment rental, I would say my bouyancy probably only made minor improvements, but trim made decent improvements, kicks made decent improvements, and it allowed me to try out a bunch of new gear that I otherwise don’t have access to so it was a good return on investment, for me. I am doing drysuit course with the same instructor next, want to use my own regs so will be getting the SSI drysuit card instead of GUE, but I do think the trim improvements I’ve made in fundies 1 will help w drysuit. I am totally agency agnostic - did open water with SSI, advanced and nitrox with PADI, and now GUE and back to SSI. I don’t care about cards just what will improve my experience and enjoyment in the water. It’s obvious to me now people have very strong views about this, so to each their own. Thank you for everyone who replied to the original question without judgment.

 

[Imla]

But other small things like you always have to wear your dive watch on the right (cuz a light/cord that I don’t have needs to go on the left).

Not only because of the light cord (a lot of us now dive cordless lights...) but one of the simpler uses is bouyancy control, dumping gas with left hand on dumpvalve, you can keep an eye on your dive watch.
Example # 2: for the more technically inclined, doing bottle rotations/ clipping/unclipping spgs/bottles, in the GUE philosphy it is all mostly used with left hand to keep right hand free to donate gas. In this setting, the dive watch will always be easily accessible to reference whilst working.

always have to unclip spg to check even tho I can see it fine without unclipping etc. felt awkward. I’m sure if I started with GUE from the get go all of this would be fine, but 250 dives in I’m used to a certain setup and if it doesn’t make my diving easier NOW I don’t really want to make adjustments NOW for things that I could/maybe/possibly want to expand to in the future.

Consider it a way for you instructor to add taskloading without adding very much risk. Clipping and unclipping on a D-ring you cannot see is a muscle memory task and takes a little bit of time to get used to. When you are used to it, clipping other things, like camera, scooter, stage-bottles, and extra bits gets easier. This task is also helpful for clipping things in drysuit pockets. Learning to clip by feel and not using vision.

It also turns out I don’t have full range of motion on my left ankle, hence why I could not do backward/helicopter kick evenly when I tried before. So more PT to do on land and need to consciously slow down and focus on the left ankle in the water. This is something I would not have figured out on my own, I always thought I was just not kicking right despite watching videos.

So it was about $600 for part 1 including the equipment rental, I would say my bouyancy probably only made minor improvements, but trim made decent improvements, kicks made decent improvements, and it allowed me to try out a bunch of new gear that I otherwise don’t have access to so it was a good return on investment, for me. I am doing drysuit course with the same instructor next, want to use my own regs so will be getting the SSI drysuit card instead of GUE, but I do think the trim improvements I’ve made in fundies 1 will help w drysuit. I am totally agency agnostic - did open water with SSI, advanced and nitrox with PADI, and now GUE and back to SSI. I don’t care about cards just what will improve my experience and enjoyment in the water. It’s obvious to me now people have very strong views about this, so to each their own. Thank you for everyone who replied to the original question without judgment.

Personally, I am a list person. I write lists. I pack neat boxes. I like things to be predictable. In other words, I like GUE. (I've gotten to CCR2/Cave2.. so...) However... with the exception of diving solo, diving beyond mod and smoking... I find that GUE is really quite flexible. Use the tools you need. You had specific reasons for joining the fundies class. Focus on those. A tip, most GUE instructors I have met are also available for teaching just specifics. IE, if you are not interested in a complete fundies, use them to hone in on the skills you need them for. If you only want a back-kick session... ask for that!
Some of the skills I really appreciate when diving with GUE divers that I seldom (Not never...) get when diving with non-gue divers are team-focus, conscious use of lights (specifically, how I can know you are OK if your light is in my field of vision, even If I don't see you), and on more technical dives I really appreciate that I can go to France, team up with a not familiar diver and not even talk the same language and still be able to conduct a really nice cave dive.
Please do not get hung up on the tales of the past. Use what GUE can give you that will enhance your diving experience! From personal experience, all the instructor I have taken classes with have loved getting questions about gear/philosphy and "why GUE does what it does". My recent instructor said that all these questions made them better. Keep asking questions.

 

[BlueTrin]

@jjmochi i think it’s common to not flex the ankle enough. I had/have the same issue, seen it on many buddies and I am still working on it.

 

[mariosx]

Very happy you got in the class and that you actually got valuable feedback.

I’m still not sold on the long hose- and I think that’s ok. It wasn’t too hard to manage but it is more work than my current setup, and I like my current Atomic reg and SS1.

Did you perform S-drills or just Basic 5 and long hose management?
If yes, what's the major key factor that you prefer a shorter hose in your configuration?
That's my honest question btw, because I tried an S-drill only once with a shorter hose and felt very potentially unsafe and uncomfortable, while from my very first dive (which was with long hose), sharing air looked trivial.

I’m sure if I started with GUE from the get go all of this would be fine, but 250 dives in I’m used to a certain setup and if it doesn’t make my diving easier NOW I don’t really want to make adjustments NOW for things that I could/maybe/possibly want to expand to in the future.

Totally fair point. GUE optimizes configuration and procedures for hard technical dives, although IMO it also applies very well in more safe and less demanding recreational settings (but with reduced gains). Certainly, the trade-off might not justify switching to "DIR" configuration if you don't feel like it.

It also turns out I don’t have full range of motion on my left ankle, hence why I could not do backward/helicopter kick evenly when I tried before. So more PT to do on land and need to consciously slow down and focus on the left ankle in the water. This is something I would not have figured out on my own, I always thought I was just not kicking right despite watching videos.

Yeap, videos are one of the best tools for GUE instructors during the class. If this is due to some injury, it's still just a matter of practice, so just keep it up. I have a bad knee, due to an ACL operation I had few years ago, that objectively has reduced motion. Thus, during my helicopter turns I had a slight constant drift, not enough to fail the skill for tec pass, but enough to be noticeable. I tried to complain/explain to the instructor the situation and then he just told me that he also had the same operation, the same issues, etc, that got fixed with constant practice.

So it was about $600 for part 1 including the equipment rental, I would say my bouyancy probably only made minor improvements, but trim made decent improvements, kicks made decent improvements, and it allowed me to try out a bunch of new gear that I otherwise don’t have access to so it was a good return on investment, for me. I am doing drysuit course with the same instructor next, want to use my own regs so will be getting the SSI drysuit card instead of GUE, but I do think the trim improvements I’ve made in fundies 1 will help w drysuit. I am totally agency agnostic - did open water with SSI, advanced and nitrox with PADI, and now GUE and back to SSI. I don’t care about cards just what will improve my experience and enjoyment in the water. It’s obvious to me now people have very strong views about this, so to each their own. Thank you for everyone who replied to the original question without judgment.

Great. Also thanks for taking the time to write your experience after the class.

 

[jjmochi]

Very happy you got in the class and that you actually got valuable feedback.

Did you perform S-drills or just Basic 5 and long hose management?
If yes, what's the major key factor that you prefer a shorter hose in your configuration?
That's my honest question btw, because I tried an S-drill only once with a shorter hose and felt very potentially unsafe and uncomfortable, while from my very first dive (which was with long hose), sharing air looked trivial.

Totally fair point. GUE optimizes configuration and procedures for hard technical dives, although IMO it also applies very well in more safe and less demanding recreational settings (but with reduced gains). Certainly, the trade-off might not justify switching to "DIR" configuration if you don't feel like it.

Yeap, videos are one of the best tools for GUE instructors during the class. If this is due to some injury, it's still just a matter of practice, so just keep it up. I have a bad knee, due to an ACL operation I had few years ago, that objectively has reduced motion. Thus, during my helicopter turns I had a slight constant drift, not enough to fail the skill for tec pass, but enough to be noticeable. I tried to complain/explain to the instructor the situation and then he just told me that he also had the same operation, the same issues, etc, that got fixed with constant practice.

Great. Also thanks for taking the time to write your experience after the class.

So on the long hose we did both s drills and basic 5 a few times. It’s the gas donation that felt a bit clunky- we were using 2m hoses and I am a pretty small person (5’2”) so there was a ton of extra hose that had to be tucked into my waist strap (it was too much to just tuck behind the light stick). So donating was fine but getting it back, tucking it in (took 2 hands), and remembering which side it wraps around the head took some getting used to, and just took way longer than switching to SS1, giving primary reg, taking back primary reg. I don’t doubt in a real out of gas scenario having 2m of hose is safer and easier to ascend, but in the one real situation I’ve experienced thus far while it was not the most comfortable we just locked arms and ascended, did safety stop etc just fine with my current setup.

I also dive with a large camera set up (full frame, 2 strobes, focus light, diopters) and just prefer the rest of my gear to be as simple and small as possible. I think in a way I’m always task loaded with the camera on all my dives so far, so adjusting to the new equipment wasn’t a big deal, but it just felt less comfortable.

 

[mariosx]

So on the long hose we did both s drills and basic 5 a few times. It’s the gas donation that felt a bit clunky- we were using 2m hoses and I am a pretty small person (5’2”) so there was a ton of extra hose that had to be tucked into my waist strap (it was too much to just tuck behind the light stick). So donating was fine but getting it back, tucking it in (took 2 hands), and remembering which side it wraps around the head took some getting used to, and just took way longer than switching to SS1, giving primary reg, taking back primary reg. I don’t doubt in a real out of gas scenario having 2m of hose is safer and easier to ascend, but in the one real situation I’ve experienced thus far while it was not the most comfortable we just locked arms and ascended, did safety stop etc just fine with my current setup.

I also dive with a large camera set up (full frame, 2 strobes, focus light, diopters) and just prefer the rest of my gear to be as simple and small as possible. I think in a way I’m always task loaded with the camera on all my dives so far, so adjusting to the new equipment wasn’t a big deal, but it just felt less comfortable.

Nice. Thanks for your insight.

 

[ginti]

So on the long hose we did both s drills and basic 5 a few times. It’s the gas donation that felt a bit clunky- we were using 2m hoses and I am a pretty small person (5’2”) so there was a ton of extra hose that had to be tucked into my waist strap (it was too much to just tuck behind the light stick). So donating was fine but getting it back, tucking it in (took 2 hands), and remembering which side it wraps around the head took some getting used to, and just took way longer than switching to SS1, giving primary reg, taking back primary reg. I don’t doubt in a real out of gas scenario having 2m of hose is safer and easier to ascend, but in the one real situation I’ve experienced thus far while it was not the most comfortable we just locked arms and ascended, did safety stop etc just fine with my current setup.

I also dive with a large camera set up (full frame, 2 strobes, focus light, diopters) and just prefer the rest of my gear to be as simple and small as possible. I think in a way I’m always task loaded with the camera on all my dives so far, so adjusting to the new equipment wasn’t a big deal, but it just felt less comfortable.

Actually for rec diving a long house of 1.5m is sufficient. It makes sense during the course to try a longer hose, but for your personal diving you can go for a shorter one