Why can't you make a living as an Instructor?

[Centrals]

I base that on my observation from 20 years as a PADI member, and comparing the number of OW students versus AOW and above, not only at our shop, but at other shops in our town and other shops using quarries in our region.

Further, since you're so fixated on links, according to this:

https://www.padi.com/sites/default/files/documents/2021-02/2021%20PADI%20Worldwide%20Statistics.pdf

only 0.5% of those PADI certifies make it to Divemaster, so if anything, when I referred to the top tier of the pyramid as one percenters, I was understating it, since Divemasters aren't the top tier.


Same with all my buddies, but in your next reply you say something about not over-extrapolating one's personal experience. You're a Scubaboard member - 90% of the divers I've met have never heard of Scubaboard. I don't assume that I'm statistically representative; neither should you.

Hypocrite how? I never said anything about the value or advisability of taking con ed courses - I said most people don't do it. You might want to check your logic skills before throwing out accusations involving concepts like hypocrisy.


And here you completely stop making sense.

0.5% made it to DM!!!!!!!!!!!! Who want to be one?
You have nothing to substantiate the 2% rubbish, haven't you?
So you have more than one card!!!!
My assessment on you is accurate! Everything you said is truth! Far from it I am afraid.

 

[Esprise Me]

Pyramid schemes are misnamed. They should be called parabolic cone schemes. The top tier are basically the one percenters.

And that 15-20% figure seems suspectfully optimistic to me. At the shops with which I'm familiar, about 2% went on to AOW. At PADI updates they were constantly saying the number of people who never went beyond OW was a huge problem. Most of PADI's revenue comes from people who get OW, go on one trip, and then it's off to get the next hole punched in their "been there, done that" ticket.

You seem to be working with a unique definition of pyramid scheme, so maybe it's best you give it a different term and define it for us.

The U.S. government describes a pyramid scheme as follows:

In the classic "pyramid" scheme, participants attempt to make money solely by recruiting new participants, usually where:

• The promoter promises a high return in a short period of time;
• No genuine product or service is actually sold; and
• The primary emphasis is on recruiting new participants.

All pyramid schemes eventually collapse, and most investors lose their money.

Pyramid Schemes | Investor.gov

In the classic "pyramid" scheme, participants attempt to make money solely by recruiting new participants, usually where: The promoter promises a high return in a short period of time; No genuine product or service is actually sold; and The primary emphasis is on recruiting new participants. All...

www.investor.gov

A gray area that is not legally considered a pyramid scheme but is often informally referred to as one is multilevel marketing (MLMs). Think Herbalife, Mary Kay, or Amway. They're not technically pyramid schemes because they do sell actual products, so theoretically they could function as legitimate businesses. But realistically, hardly anyone likes the products enough to really want to pay what they charge. Instead, the sellers at the bottom end up having to eat a lot of their own inventory and often lose money, but the people above them still get a cut and a few on top come out ahead. They're legal businesses, but they're shady and exploitative.

The scuba industry clearly isn't a pyramid scheme in the strictest sense, because there are actual products and services for sale. But one could make an argument that it's shady and exploitative in the vein of MLMs if people are being manipulated into paying money to the agencies to "go pro" with the promise that it'll pay for itself and then some, but then finding out the only real way to make money is to "go course director" and recruit new people to work underneath them.

That may be a fair criticism, based on what I've heard about how little DMs and instructors earn. But I'm still not sure what point you're making about the number of people who ever progress beyond OW.

As I understand it, the fundamental problem with pyramid schemes and MLMs is that they require exponential growth. In a classic pyramid scheme, I get five friends to each give me twenty bucks, and instruct them to turn around and do the same to five of their friends. Everybody who pulls this off ends up a hundred bucks richer. But it would only take about 14 cycles before all 8 billion humans on earth are sucked in, and then the pyramid collapses with everyone in the last cycle losing out. An MLM ends up being similar, despite the fig leaf of an actual product or service, because hardly anyone actually wants the product; everyone involved is just trying to sell it.

You're arguing that 1) hardly anyone progresses beyond OW, and 2) this makes the industry a pyramid scheme. I'm not sure you're right about 1), but even if you are, 2) doesn't follow from it. A lack of repeat business is not a characteristic of a pyramid scheme. My husband and I took dance lessons before our wedding from a teacher whose entire business was people like us. Since most people don't get married on a regular basis, she was constantly having to hustle for new clients, but she made it work. There are apparently enough people getting married in the LA area every year who are willing to drop a grand on dance lessons to show off at their wedding to keep at least this one woman in business. And with people getting engaged every day, she might never run out of clients. There's no theoretical reason the scuba industry couldn't work the same way: a small number of instructors make a living teaching a large number of people to dive, so those people can show off their awesome vacation photos and then promptly forget how to attach their first stage, just like all the newlyweds promptly forget which foot to start with when dancing salsa.

 

[bfw]

You have nothing to substantiate the 2% rubbish, haven't you?

Just 20 years of observations covering hundreds of OW students. I said it was my suspicion - what's your problem?

So you have more than one card!!!!

Yes, from 4 different agencies - so what? Of what relevance is that? Where did I ever claim not to have more than one card? Where did I ever claim there's anything wrong with having more than one card?

My assessment on you is accurate! Everything you said is truth! Far from it I am afraid.

And you continue not to make any sense.
But hey, I get it, logic is hard.

 

[Chavodel8en]

My own OW class had 20+ students, and I was the only one to go on to AOW.

Sure, at my last OW 15 year reunion, we all checked in with each other and compared our dive training history. Aside from that, I also make it a point to keep track of of my entire OW cohort. Judy, for one, needs to get out diving more.

I am sure this observation of yours is as solidly backed as everything else you've posted here.

 

[Rose Robinson]

DoriaDiver,

That's a wonderful post. Everything you have identified is true.

We follow two roads on our ''living journey''. One road is called love, the other road is called life.

Most us us, choose to follow the road of life, not always because we particularly want to but because we want to enjoy the best life has to offer.

The road of love is the hardest path of the two. We firmly plant ourselves with the mindset. ''If I don't LOVE it, I will not do it''.

Case in point, becoming viable in the scuba industry. First of all, to call it an industry, is an insult to the word industry. It's more akin to a club of like minded individuals, having their heart and minds set on scratching out a living from something they ''LOVE'' to do.

To a miniscule few, who are intelligent, daring and willing to suffer it can be done, to the rest,

A love, should never have become a life!

Rose

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You seem to be working with a unique definition of pyramid scheme, so maybe it's best you give it a different term and define it for us.

The government definition seems to fit the scuba industry perfectly! Except for the collapsing part. Shrinking instead.

To answer the OP's question, because you can sell both kidneys, you can sell only one and that's not enough money to supplement your income that you stay about the poverty line.

 

[ofg-1]

Some of you guys are nucking futs.

To have a pyramid scheme, you have to have a hook, some type of promise of a return on investment. No one I ever knew promised that you could make a lot of money in the diving business. If they did, make sure you do not buy any real estate or a used car from them. Diving is a business where you can spend thousands to make hundreds.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Some of you guys are nucking futs.

To have a pyramid scheme, you have to have a hook, some type of promise of a return on investment. No one I ever knew promised that you could make a lot of money in the diving business. If they did, make sure you do not buy any real estate or a used car from them. Diving is a business where you can spend thousands to make hundreds.

Well, there is the expectation that one doesn't have to sell one's blood to have enough to eat.

One of my buddies was a "dirtbag climber" (his words) and he'd eat off people's plates at restaurants after they left.

I could never live like that.

 

[Centrals]

Just 20 years of observations covering hundreds of OW students. I said it was my suspicion - what's your problem?


Yes, from 4 different agencies - so what? Of what relevance is that? Where did I ever claim not to have more than one card? Where did I ever claim there's anything wrong with having more than one card?


And you continue not to make any sense.
But hey, I get it, logic is hard.

LOL.
Now it was your suspicion but without any substantiation. Tomorrow your 2% could become 4%!!!
You have cards from 4 different agencies! What is the chance that some of your students moved to another shop/instructor without notifying you? Would you know about that?
I have cards from 5 different instructors/operators and I am not an exception and so were you(with 4).
You listed your case of 15 ow classmates and have the nerve to extrapolate it to others!!!This is LOGIC!
Please do not insult that word. You will never understand the true meaning of it.
"Frog at the bottom of the well"/"Look at the sky from the bottom of the well". Classic example here.
"You ain't see nothing yet"!!! Nice song.

I have to travel to dive mainly around SE Asia and came across many local DM/Instructors happily living on the meager income from the occupation.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

All this complaining about the substandard pay of instructors. Did somebody put a gun to their heads to make them become an instructor and work for dirt?
It’s a matter of supply and demand.
Diving is a super fun hobby. Becoming an instructor means to a lot of people that they can work in an industry that they love. There’s a saying that if you love your job you never work a day in your life. Maybe some of them became instructors not caring how low the pay is, they just want to do it. The problem is that the industry is flooded with instructors, and the other side of the problem is you have a customer base that is only willing to pay so much for instruction and certification, so revenue stagnates. There is only so much money to be made and if instructors are still willing to work for dirt then that’s what they will be paid.
Increased demand means the ability to increase prices means more revenue. Less instructors willing to work for dirt with a hypothetical increase in demand and revenue means instructor pay goes up. If prices go up with no demand and no willingness to pay for the increases then you have demand destruction and you begin to kill the industry.
Money is tight these days so increases in something like recreation could very well lead to demand destruction. With the cost of living going up steadily there is less money for the fun things like diving.
If you don’t like being an indentured slave then don’t be one.

And I’m guessing a lot of people who get OW certified do get AOW if for nothing else than to be able to get on dive boats that prefer customers have it. And after that nitrox, then past that rescue. I’m not even going to pretend I know the statistics because I’m not a professional market analyst.
I doubt many people around here are.