Neutral and horizontal with guided dive op rental gear

[NorCalDM]

I wouldn't worry too much about what style, what is cost effective and serviceable in my area of the world. As a shop owner you are usually affiliated with a brand so what do they have that fits this need. I would have weights in 5#, 4#, 3#, 2# and 1# to make it easy to come up with the best combination. To be honest as the business owner I could care less about trim and buoyancy of someone renting my gear unless they are my student. The diver coming in to rent gear is certified and not paying me for a class, now I will give them some pointers because I don't want the environment destroyed but I'm not going to reteach their OW class. You have to look at it as a business and unfortunately many who get into the business do so because they love diving but are not good business people.

 

[Adobo]

I have came across only one shop that has BP/W as an option over last 20+ yrs in all the places that I had dived in SE Asia.

Which tells us what?

If BP/Ws were readily available (no bungees or double bladders) for rent in dive shops at vacation diving locations, I would rent those instead of bring my own.

 

[Adobo]

I can dive close to horizontally with jacket bc and not kicking up any silt.
Balance rig is not limited to BP/W only.

I was diving in a cattle boat recently. A newly minted diver was in my group. She had a rental jacket BC. She remained perfectly horizontal during the entire dive with the exception of her safety stop.

Getting trimmed out in a jacket BC to be horizontal without moving is not rocket science. The principles you apply are the same regardless of whether it is a jacket BC or a back inflate BC (which is what a BP/W system is).

 

[mcohen1021]

It is almost like reading is no longer fundamental. Go back, re-read the original post by the the OP. The question posed is not "What does the current rental market look like or what is it YOU have seen?"

The question had some very basic parts

What would YOU do to achieve a certain GOAL.

PS - These answers can vary and do not have to be identical. You tell him what you would do with YOUR shop and why.

Seems pretty clear the OP answered his own question and only wants to steer the conversation to agreement. But maybe my comprehension is off.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

As a dive operator, how would you equip rental clients if you wanted to support them having an easy horizontal orientation in the water? 
I mean them having a balanced weight distribution, in gear and weights you rented and guided them with, so that they can easily be horizontal when close to the bottom.


I don't care if it is jackets, back inflate or BP/W. My interest is what capability does the gear need to have and what do you need on hand for that to work. Some BC forms may make that easier or not. That is not the point.

To me, it seems the dive op needs:

- BCs with weight pockets low, mid and high. Like hip, back and shoulder. The high could also be attachable pockets the guides have in reserve, or bungee systems compatible with the BCs.
- A third of the lead in one and two pound increments for distribution mid or high.
- Guides able to assist with start-of-dive lead shifting when the on-land distribution was off.
- Divers who where trained that proper weighting includes distribution, not just amount. And who expect and assist in that.

(This discussion is not about:
- Arguing that proper weighting doesn't include weight distribution.
- Arguing that divers are not ready for this, though certainly most are not currently trained that way.
- Arguing they must always be horizontal. They don't. But near the bottom they need to be, or head down, to not kick it up.)

The question was prompted by the thread: Is horizontal position really better?. A natural evolution from that thread is how do dive ops support that, in a world where divers are trained for it. That most divers are not currently there is a separate matter. I do think neutral and horizontal, near the bottom, is a basic scuba thing.


What do you think the dive op would need? Or what do such rental divers need from the dive op?

While this image of a BP/W setup has two cylinder straps, a third one is added on the tank for fine tuning weight distribution.

So trim pockets is one. I'm assuming we are diving a balanced rig here. Weight pockets (maybe even for ditchable weight) can be added on the waist strap. In rare cases where the person is head heavy, moving weight down may not be enough. Heavier fins (like Hollis F1 or ScubaPro/OMS Beachat derivatives) as well as lighter fins (Deep 6 Eddy, Apeks RK3).

The biggest problem I see with a BP/W being provided (though I know one dive center in Mexico that all they provide is BP/W, but that's an exception) is the lack of familiarity for most divers/dive pros. It isn't rocket science. I will do my best to steer people in that direction when I open my dive center, but I must admit the possibility of being forced to get jacket style BCDs.

So:
1. BP/W
2. Trim pockets for cylinder straps (possibly extra cylinder strap)
3. Weight pouches for weight belt

 

[MichaelMc]

Thanks for all the responses.

I'm not fishing for a "rent BP/Ws" response. I don't care jacket/back/BP, all can work.

The more interesting bit is how do we wind up with the right weight distribution five minutes into the dive. Assuming clients understand and expect a weight distribution effort, and the dive market does distribution. How does your boat guided op manage distribution.

Currently dive ops focus on equipping customers with the right amount of weight. Some of them have guides carry a few more pounds and have a big BC so they can adjust client weight amount if needed.

We are saying elsewhere that proper weighting includes distribution.

Assume all customers understand distribution (it is now universally taught in OW). Assume a good portion of the clients will do any distribution adjustments themselves with their buddy. But they need a phase of the dive plan for that, and a few pairs may need some help.

How does that play out at the dive op for rental gear, weights and dive phases?

- How many trim pockets? Where?
- Do guides carry extra trim pockets?
- Do they just put shoulder trim pockets on all the BCs?
- Do they make sure everyone has small increments of weight?
- How small? How much of the weight small?
- Are some of the weights always clip-on so they can be moved with less risk of dropping?
- How do guides do a weight distribution check and adjustment?
- Does the second guide do them at 5' in buddy pairs while people are collecting on the surface?
- On the bottom as people collect, so weights dropped while shifting are easy to retrieve?
- Do you explore under the boat while guides help pairs tune up their distribution?

How would you run the dive op for the issues above: trim locations, increments, clip-on?, guide gear, when/how distribution check and adjustment.

 

[Vicko]

If you are really set on having a "premium" rental gear you can have a basic layout with a small amount of weights ziptied to the backplate and trim pockets on the cam bands, they are easy enough to fill and empty as required.
People who would chose to use that are fussy so I would guess that they would ask for small increment of weights, I had a guy demanding 0.3 kg weights to trim out. He was slightly annoyed with my eye rolls.
One of the workarounds would be to get steel tanks as they tend to have a more even weight distribution so require less fiddling to get it perfect.
But the thing that will mess with you day the most is testing it out, if you want to personalize the trim for each customer you will have to spend time in the water with them, time that most divers on vacation would rather spend doing the actual dive.
X-deep has a dive centre version of a wing that's set up for just a case like this.

 

[Centrals]

Which tells us what?

If BP/Ws were readily available (no bungees or double bladders) for rent in dive shops at vacation diving locations, I would rent those instead of bring my own.

IF.
I used rental equipment for a short trip and used what is available and 100% it is jacket.

I was diving in a cattle boat recently. A newly minted diver was in my group. She had a rental jacket BC. She remained perfectly horizontal during the entire dive with the exception of her safety stop.

Getting trimmed out in a jacket BC to be horizontal without moving is not rocket science. The principles you apply are the same regardless of whether it is a jacket BC or a back inflate BC (which is what a BP/W system is).

Technique not equipment.
A lousy driver is always a lousy driver.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm going to assume that this is a warm water location, so if the BCD is a BP/W, then the BP/W that I'd recommend will be AL, no SS. Regardless of BCD type, there will be two cylinder straps (those single strap BCDs tend to be garbage). The third cylinder strap to fine tune trim isn't practical for the vacation diver.

I'm also going to assume that this is a rather benign environment, no currents and diving from a boat.

Trim pockets on both cylinder straps would be permanent, whether being used on a particular dive or not. Waist pockets (or ditachable weight pockets for jacket style BCDs or special add on) would be there.

I would expect that most people would never need in excess of 20 lbs, but there will be some. I can't speak to that as I've never had to work with it, but eventually I will. I would prefer to place them in SS BP/W. I might even have a 10 lb BP available for those rare cases.

At the beginning of the dive, if possible, I'd have the DM (never more than 4 people per one) look over for any egregious trim issues and move some weights to improve the situation, but not necessarily perfect. Then and the safety stop, I'd have the DM clean it up. In 3 minutes, the DM should be able to make adjustments for 4 customers if need be.

 

[MichaelMc]

But the thing that will mess with you day the most is testing it out, if you want to personalize the trim for each customer you will have to spend time in the water with them, time that most divers on vacation would rather spend doing the actual dive.
X-deep has a dive centre version of a wing that's set up for just a case like this.

Lets assume most buddy pairs can assist each other in the adjust phase. And we are not going for uber perfect, though the divers can, just decent distribution.

What about that wing helps?