Diver missing at Ginnie?
- Thread starter DandyDon
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Even though we aren't supposed to give condolences in this forum, it's hard not to, and so I also extend mine to his friends here.
But since this is A&I, we should be talking about what happened. As soon as someone feels free to share some details, that can help save lives in the future.
But since this is A&I, we should be talking about what happened. As soon as someone feels free to share some details, that can help save lives in the future.
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sandiegoaes
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I seem to recall Rob Palmer's wife finding out about his death from internet trolls before someone she cared about could break the news to her in person that her husband died while diving.
I fail to see why waiting to release the name online until the family can be notified is such a pressing issue.
I fail to see why waiting to release the name online until the family can be notified is such a pressing issue.
If I am friends with the poor guy -- and don't live in NFL inside the rumormill -- I might like to console the wife, family, kids, whoever....why would I want to wait to do that?
sandiegoaes
Contributor
In this specific case, I accept your input as well-intended. But you are actually making assumptions about who I know and his family.
I'm more speaking in general; the whole "let's not talk about it" attitude....like maybe it will go away. It extends from even mentioning a death, to mentioning the name, to mentioning the circumstances and especially the equipment...oh, my, someone might get offended. If the only people who are "allowed" to know and discuss these things are a small group of insiders....isn't that the actual problem?
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This was going on in CDF and I was about to post this message there, but the trolls over there will continue to troll and we'll never get anywhere saying specifically there is no point in accident analysis. We already know everything and someone violated the rules so just don't violate the rules. What horsesh!t.
Not knowing the full situation of what happened yet since I wasn't with him on the dive nor was I on the recovery team this is all speculation. Speculation though can lead to interesting discussion regardless of what actually happened in that cave so let's go down this route.
I believe this is how the rules are worded verbatim from the book. Travelling so don't have it with me, but the verbiage is important.
Be Trained for Cave Diving, and Remain Within the Limits of Your Training
Maintain a Continuous Guideline to the Cave Exit
Keep Two Thirds of Your Starting Gas Volume in Reserve to Exit the Cave
Remain Within the Safest Possible Operating Limits for Your Breathing Media
Use Three Sources of Light
There's two that are points of contention for me that I think we need to seriously think about as a community and potentially rewrite.
My gut says this diver was "certified" to be back where he was, however he was no longer "qualified" to be back there. I won't say much more because it will give away the name, but while the rule says stay within the limits of your training, I think we need to seriously reconsider how we approach this rule. Just because you are trained to be somewhere doesn't mean you are qualified to be there. These skills are all perishable and need to be built up over time if you aren't using them. Learning how to understand the limits that you have today and how they may be different than last week, last year, or last decade are important especially as we continue to age and the cave diving population is more and more diverse geographically. Sure you may have a full cave and trimix card, but if you've been stuck up in the Great White North for the last two years due to COVID it doesn't mean you should go play a 3000ft penetration in Eagles Nest your first week back cave diving.
Thirds-This is one that I think we need to seriously look at rewording entirely. Sure it sounds good and is easy math, but is Thirds enough in a low flow cave with a 2-man team? I certainly don't believe so. How much bailout do we need to plan for DPV and CCR? Are our SAC rates still what we think they are if we've been on CCR and haven't done an OC cave dive in years?
These are things that they didn't really have to think about back in the day when these were penned. There weren't nearly as many "tourist" cave divers as we have today, people probably weren't coming and going like they tend to now, and DPV's and CCR's were nowhere near as prevalent as they are now.
Not knowing the full situation of what happened yet since I wasn't with him on the dive nor was I on the recovery team this is all speculation. Speculation though can lead to interesting discussion regardless of what actually happened in that cave so let's go down this route.
I believe this is how the rules are worded verbatim from the book. Travelling so don't have it with me, but the verbiage is important.
Be Trained for Cave Diving, and Remain Within the Limits of Your Training
Maintain a Continuous Guideline to the Cave Exit
Keep Two Thirds of Your Starting Gas Volume in Reserve to Exit the Cave
Remain Within the Safest Possible Operating Limits for Your Breathing Media
Use Three Sources of Light
There's two that are points of contention for me that I think we need to seriously think about as a community and potentially rewrite.
My gut says this diver was "certified" to be back where he was, however he was no longer "qualified" to be back there. I won't say much more because it will give away the name, but while the rule says stay within the limits of your training, I think we need to seriously reconsider how we approach this rule. Just because you are trained to be somewhere doesn't mean you are qualified to be there. These skills are all perishable and need to be built up over time if you aren't using them. Learning how to understand the limits that you have today and how they may be different than last week, last year, or last decade are important especially as we continue to age and the cave diving population is more and more diverse geographically. Sure you may have a full cave and trimix card, but if you've been stuck up in the Great White North for the last two years due to COVID it doesn't mean you should go play a 3000ft penetration in Eagles Nest your first week back cave diving.
Thirds-This is one that I think we need to seriously look at rewording entirely. Sure it sounds good and is easy math, but is Thirds enough in a low flow cave with a 2-man team? I certainly don't believe so. How much bailout do we need to plan for DPV and CCR? Are our SAC rates still what we think they are if we've been on CCR and haven't done an OC cave dive in years?
These are things that they didn't really have to think about back in the day when these were penned. There weren't nearly as many "tourist" cave divers as we have today, people probably weren't coming and going like they tend to now, and DPV's and CCR's were nowhere near as prevalent as they are now.
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