Navigation error in a cave

[306dive306]

I am aware of Gareth Locke and his approach to human factors. Moreover, I am fully aware and appreciative of the fact that there are human factors specialists in aviation (another quite unforgiving environment... at least while we're in the air :-D) and other environments.

However, as I previously mentioned, either people can behave properly "under fire" or they cannot. We can discuss all details that contributed to one's reactions at a given moment/environment after the event but some people are deselected from some professions (such as aviation) because they demonstrate they are not capable of reacting properly to given stimuli. This is called aptitude.

Below, I have included the link to Gareth Locke's video "If Only", where he presents the analysis of one well-known death.

YES!! Thank you for the exchange of ideas. I'm definitely learning here!!!

 

[lermontov]

Im sure we are all aware of the human factors involved in decision errors - that is why the training agencies endeavour to standardise procedures.
For me this scenario is plain and simple - protocols are broken- risk increases . We may get away with it once, twice, fifty times but eventually random and unconnected situations that may in and of themselves seem minor, align themselves to create a " a perfect storm " a potentially deadly mix that can easily cascade out of control .

Pretty much all training from OW to ccr checklists are designed to create circuit breaker system to pull you back to safer operating margins and stop you deviating off.

 

[ginti]

However, as I previously mentioned, either people can behave properly "under fire" or they cannot. We can discuss all details that contributed to one's reactions at a given moment/environment after the event but some people are deselected from some professions (such as aviation) because they demonstrate they are not capable of reacting properly to given stimuli. This is called aptitude.

Well, we need to agree to disagree I don't believe in black and white. While certain people indeed cannot work under fire, most can. They just may need different amounts of time to get used to stressful conditions. Long periods are not an option in the job environment, so I agree that many people can't work as aviators (military, firemen, or whatever). But with the proper training, I still think that a relative majority can do that.

Anyway, this discussion is becoming a bit theoretical... I'll just add a couple of comments that still make me think that human factors played a significant role:
- the OP stated that he has only one realistic option for cave diving: these two buddies; this is a massive psychological pressure. We all agree that diving with "bad" buddies is a terrible idea, but how do you know how "bad" a diver is? Also, we heard only one version of the story; maybe these divers are not bad at all, just used to dive solo, in which case some quick chat can potentially solve all the problems.
- the OP started making mistakes AFTER there were some misunderstandings with his buddies; in other words, he didn't break the standards first, and he didn't start the chain of events (at least, he didn't do it underwater). In these conditions, any choices would be out of his training. For sure, there are better options than others, but if you have to think fast in a context like that one (where, again, anything you do breaks, in any case, any standards), mistakes are inevitable.

I hope we aren't going too far and that these inputs still can help @Hiszpan

 

[306dive306]

hey @ginti

I, personally, enjoy exchange of ideas. Too many people think this is a negative thing and that people should make one comment and "leave it" but if I had done that I would not have come across the article you sent me, which is awesome. Therefore, I'm glad we're exchanging "theoretical ideas" because the next piece of learning (for me, at least) could be one post away.

- the OP stated that he has only one realistic option for cave diving: these two buddies; this is a massive psychological pressure. We all agree that diving with "bad" buddies is a terrible idea, but how do you know how "bad" a diver is? Also, we heard only one version of the story; maybe these divers are not bad at all, just used to dive solo, in which case some quick chat can potentially solve all the problems.

I agree to some extent. I've had "buddies" who ditched me in open water (cannot compare to overhead environments, I know) and I continued the dive on my own. After a while, I just started solo diving where I live because it makes my life easier.

I still think if a person cannot make sound decisions to benefit themselves they need to "wake up and shape up."

- the OP started making mistakes AFTER there were some misunderstandings with his buddies; in other words, he didn't break the standards first, and he didn't start the chain of events (at least, he didn't do it underwater). In these conditions, any choices would be out of his training. For sure, there are better options than others, but if you have to think fast in a context like that one (where, again, anything you do breaks, in any case, any standards), mistakes are inevitable.

"He didn't break standards first." It doesn't matter at all. He added more links to the accident chain. This is not a case of "he started it."

"In these conditions, any choices would be out of his training." Full cave training doesn't teach people how to think for themselves; it teaches SOPs; if people will apply the SOPs or not, it's their business. You either perform or you don't. Obviously, performance can be improved over time.

"If you have to think fast in a context like that one, mistakes are inevitable."I dont know, man. From the comfort of my chair, I will state that there was plenty of time to make better decisions but the self-inflicted pressure to catch up with 2 people who clearly didn't give a crap about his was greater than the desire to leave the cave or follow SOPs (arrows, cookies, proper jumps).

Finally, I will mention one saying I believe in: "Disagree with an intelligent person and you have a partner for conversations. Disagree with an idiot and you will have an enemy."

Cheers, all!

 

[rjack321]

However, as I previously mentioned, either people can behave properly "under fire" or they cannot. We can discuss all details that contributed to one's reactions at a given moment/environment after the event but some people are deselected from some professions (such as aviation) because they demonstrate they are not capable of reacting properly to given stimuli. This is called aptitude.

Well the OP has left the conversation, possibly because you were jumping their bones and calling them inept and incapable. Which is totally counterproductive and defeats the whole point of people sharing in the first place.

You don't know the OP anymore than I do. I've been cave diving for almost 20 years now though - my gut feeling is if the OP put down the camera and had some decent buddies who weren't stressing them out they would be a reasonably safe cave diver. Cave diving lines and navigation isn't all that different than doing an ascent from a wreck together. One poor diver bouncy all over the place can make everyone else's ascent rocky. Similarly 2 poor cave divers rushing, with weak line, briefing, and navigation skills can totally overwhelm the one diver (the OP in this case) who's at least trying to do the right thing.

 

[huwporter]

can totally overwhelm the one diver (the OP in this case) who's at least trying to do the right thing.

Oh yes. I'd happily dive with someone who is able to admit mistakes and who shows they want to learn from them before I'd dive with someone who wants to use other people's mistakes to build up their own ego.

 

[ginti]

Well the OP has left the conversation, possibly because you were jumping their bones and calling them inept and incapable. Which is totally counterproductive and defeats the whole point of people sharing in the first place.

Agree that calling people inept is counterproductive, but @Hiszpan is reading, and, frankly speaking, I don't think anyone had the intention to jump the bones of someone else.

Anyway, I have the same gut feeling as you, despite having way less experience. Also, it is rare to find people who are willing to discuss their errors, and usually, these people do that because they want to improve.

 

[ginti]

I still think if a person cannot make sound decisions to benefit themselves they need to "wake up and shape up."

Well, if he wrote this post, it's because he had a serious "wake up" event, and now he wants to shape up (=improve?).

"He didn't break standards first." It doesn't matter at all. He added more links to the accident chain. This is not a case of "he started it."

Not true that it doesn't matter. Once the chain is broken, in real-life scenarios, it is basically impossible to make the best choices; and, without serious experience, it is extremely hard even to make acceptable choices. It is really, really hard.

Out of curiosity, have you ever had an unexpected event while diving? And inside a cave?

"In these conditions, any choices would be out of his training." Full cave training doesn't teach people how to think for themselves; it teaches SOPs; if people will apply the SOPs or not, it's their business. You either perform or you don't. Obviously, performance can be improved over time.

I am not full cave trained; however, already at my level (intro/cave1/whatever_we_want_to_call_it), my instructor taught me:
- SOPs;
- the principles behind SOPs;
- the environment;
- how to combine the previous three factors.
And, by combining the first three factors, and with a good dose of experience, it is possible to think well (which doesn't mean at all to break standards). For instance, what do you do if a buddy falls unconscious? Or if you lose your buddy (let's assume your life partner) in a no visibility situation? And so on.

At full cave level, these four aspects should be even more solid.

"If you have to think fast in a context like that one, mistakes are inevitable."I dont know, man. From the comfort of my chair, I will state that there was plenty of time to make better decisions but the self-inflicted pressure to catch up with 2 people who clearly didn't give a crap about his was greater than the desire to leave the cave or follow SOPs (arrows, cookies, proper jumps).

You said it right man... from the comfort of your chair As I said before, I am aware that making the right choice is not an option in an actual situation. The best is an acceptable solution to a problem if training and experience are appropriate - and, therefore, one can adequately think.

 

[Hiszpan]

You never made audible signals (i.e. banging a double ender on a tank) to try and attract their attention instead of doing blind jumps.

Good idea with a double-ender. I had my Focus 2.0 adjusted on a wide beam and 3 diffused video lights (2x1000 lumens and 6500 lumens) - it did not allow for saber-like signals to be given/visible.

You mentioned you studied the cave map and that you check your compass. There is no way in heaven you're going to remember this type of data if "the doo-doo hits the fan" and you need to get out of the cave fast, under stress.

I do not base my navigation on studying a map. If I lose my way in a cave, there is a significant chance I will find it back (regardless of knowing a map). If I lose all air, there is zero chance I can find it back. My state of mind made me choose to cover for a less probable scenario (catastrophic loss of all gas) and bend the rules rather than adhere to rules and cover the more probable scenario (getting lost in a new cave).

don't violate rules and guidelines to reach your "buddies" (you do not need a special certification to dive solo).

This was the first time I did leave the line and the last. It was significant enough for me to write my story because out of us 3 buddies, I am the one trying to adhere to all the rules on every dive.

In a silt out or very low visibility situation how are you going to figure this mess of 4 arrows and a cookie out?

Easy, my (and theirs) markers are notched in a unique pattern. Additionally, there has never been more than 1 dive team in caves here at the same time (unless maybe in the 80s when Rob Power was drawing maps of the systems here). It is not an excuse to be complacent and I do dive each time as it was a Mexican cave with other teams (my buddies on the other hand...)

I would recommend you all switch to REMs, perhaps they would keep your arrow trained buddies happy and not lead to such a confusing situation like this.

This was suggested by buddy #2 who was trained to use them. I spoke to my cave instructor and he advised me not to switch without proper training.

Although if I were in your situation, I would probably feel safer solo diving than with unreliable buddies who leave me in the dust

My wife would divorce me.

18/20m in a cave are fairly deep, except if you have already some experience; but you were starting again after a long break, weren't you?

No, this must have been about the 20th cave dive this year.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but at 18/20m with a lot of CO2 in the blood, you risk non-negligible narcosis hit. If I am right (but I am not a doctor in any way!) some of your poor decisions may come from narcosis.

Possibly, I have misread the pressure gauge on a long, cold, and tiring cave dive with buddy #1 which might be an example.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is social pressure.

This is the biggest problem - #1 is an older and much more experienced (cave)diver. His dives are goal-oriented and push you to the limits of what you are comfy with (or beyond). His training is from the olden days and clashes with mine. I do stick to my guns but it was always hard - until now when the near-miss showed me that right is right and wrong is wrong.

I'm not sure what your instructor did teach you during training.

He gave me excellent training to the point that I am teaching #1 and #2 the most up-to-date navigation in caves. He was tough to please and deadly serious about his job.

How do you distinguish your markers on the line from the permanent markers?

Answered above - unique notches on markers allow me to feel mine.

No, I don't. I can see a lot of "explanations" for what he did.

They were not explanations - you asked what I was thinking and I tried to retrace my thought process. You then interpreted that as me trying to explain my poor choices.

how about you chat with your buddies (#1 and #2) and try to come to an agreement on how to behave in the cave?

As mentioned in my previous post, we already had a WhatsApp discussion and a lot is supposed to change (cameraman in the middle, waiting at navigational points, buddy awareness, etc.) I also decided I will start to actually lead our dives instead of being at the back.

Well, I read the OP's first post and it seems to me that he is totally aware of the training rules he broke; indeed, the first three points he mentioned were a "what went wrong" and summarize more or less all the broken rules/standards.

Spot on.

Also, as I said I believe that the OP is totally aware of the standards/rules he broke. That made me think that his poor judgement underwater comes from factors other than his training, and I can see only 2 of them:
- human factors;
- psychological impairment.

I had two immensely stressful life processes going on at the time of the dive, which coupled with the concoction of trying to film a dive in an unfamiliar cave and being left by the buddies, could have caused me to choose to cover irrational fear of losing all gas rather than the very tangible possibility of getting lost.

I do not see the point in hearing (reading) someone describe how they violated safety rules in an unforgiving environment and rationalizing their poor decisions by sharing the responsibility for such bad decisions with inanimate objects and others without telling them they need to have greater internal locus of control.

Nobody blames inanimate objects - theirs is but a significant contribution to the overall CF.

People need to "put the weight on their shoulders" instead of saying that cameras contributed to their demise (or close call). When/if people state "the camera made me do it" they are not demonstrating internal locus of control.

Read the above.

Maybe because I was in the military at an early age and in that environment there is no excuse for mistakes. Once you make a mistake you say out loud: "No excuses! I screwed up! I will fix it! It won't happen again!"

I was not.

Once again: thank you for your response!!

You're welcome.

While certain people indeed cannot work under fire, most can. They just may need different amounts of time to get used to stressful conditions. Long periods are not an option in the job environment, so I agree that many people can't work as aviators (military, firemen, or whatever). But with the proper training, I still think that a relative majority can do that.

I concur. If categorized along 306dive306's lines, most of us would not be able to be cave divers.

. I'll just add a couple of comments that still make me think that human factors played a significant role:
- the OP stated that he has only one realistic option for cave diving: these two buddies; this is a massive psychological pressure.
- the OP started making mistakes AFTER there were some misunderstandings with his buddies; in other words, he didn't break the standards first, and he didn't start the chain of events (at least, he didn't do it underwater).

Correct.

I hope we aren't going too far and that these inputs still can help @Hiszpan

They do.

Well the OP has left the conversation, possibly because you were jumping their bones and calling them inept and incapable. Which is totally counterproductive and defeats the whole point of people sharing in the first place.

I have not, just not had time to answer and other posts keep on piling up.

You don't know the OP anymore than I do. I've been cave diving for almost 20 years now though - my gut feeling is if the OP put down the camera and had some decent buddies who weren't stressing them out they would be a reasonably safe cave diver. Cave diving lines and navigation isn't all that different than doing an ascent from a wreck together. One poor diver bouncy all over the place can make everyone else's ascent rocky. Similarly 2 poor cave divers rushing, with weak line, briefing, and navigation skills can totally overwhelm the one diver (the OP in this case) who's at least trying to do the right thing.

Exactly my thoughts on reality.

 

[Hiszpan]

I posted my experience for all to read and conclude for themselves what needs to be changed in their diving. Someone somewhere is being peer pressured to do hard dives, might have some stressful life situations, and might want to do all things at once. It is important to recognize when to say stop and back off. We are not Supermen, it is OK to admit I am not ready for this, such a decision will only benefit you in the future.


Your input confirmed my self-diagnosis but was invaluable in reinforcing that what I think the cave (and any) buddy diving should look like is more or less correct.

p.s. what does 'OP' stand for?

p.s.2 how to split your post if it is over 10000 characters and you can't post it?