Resort's " New Normal " Rule - No AIR 2 or diving your long hose

[KenGordon]

I disagree. Using "training" as what is practiced is not redefining words to suit, it's what training is. Practice is what develops skills and I have a very difficult time believing that bsac (or anyone else) would seriously expect ingrained skills from a class once, rather than consistent skills that are practiced with every dive and built through experience.

In BSAC training you do AAS stuff more than once.

Are you honestly claiming that the kind of people who dive an Air2 without an octopus are practicing using it for OOA ascents frequently?

Practice and training are not the same.

TRAINING | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Training

the process of learning the skills you need to do a particular job or activity:
We got two weeks of on-the-job training on how to conduct interviews.
competition, you exercise in a way that prepares you for it.

PRACTICE | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

the act of doing something regularly or repeatedly to improve your skill at doing it:

So when BSAC say that people revert to training, they mean training not practice. You are saying that the practice replaces the trained response. They are explicitly saying that is not the case and people revert to training. In the BSAC case that is because in a couple of hundred OOA incidents over 10 years there was a small number of primary donates and one primary take. Mostly people did as originally trained, which in BSAC’s case is secondary take.

Training is important, practice is important too but without training and learning practice is not useful. Practicing the wrong thing is not good.

 

[broncobowsher]

So it is just ONE resort that has this knee jerk response? Sure others may follow unless they see how bad the backlash is from the first place that tries it.

 

[KenGordon]

So it is just ONE resort that has this knee jerk response? Sure others may follow unless they see how bad the backlash is from the first place that tries it.

I have already checked out the prices and found a U.K. travel agent that goes there, this cuts two ways. I will be sure to mention that it was the Air2 thing that did it.

 

[Gareth J]

So it is just ONE resort that has this knee jerk response? Sure others may follow unless they see how bad the backlash is from the first place that tries it.

In the UK the BDSG and the BSAC has just released guidance on returning to diving, changes in procedures etc.

 

[johndiver999]

Reinforcing the comments above...."training" has become a weekend at best for many people. Think how many seminars or training sessions we have been subjected to in our professional and educational careers - dozens or hundreds? We probably can't even remember half the topics of those "trainings".

It is surprising for me to see people being so confident in predicting the responses of other people during an emergency situation based primarily on a "training".

I think for most (even marginally active) divers, their response is going to be more highly influenced by what practices they typically engage in, rather than what some extremely short term training session(s) attempted to impart.

If a diver practices sticking the Air 2 in their mouth once in a while and doing an ascent, I think it is quite possible they could complete this task in a stressful situation as well. Also (in reference to the Air2 specifically) as mentioned by a previous poster, a diver is CONSTANTLY grabbing and using and manipulating the AIR2 device on every single dive (as part of the normal buoyancy control activities). This is NOT required of a diver who carries the normal octopus. How many recreational divers typically practice deploying a standard octopus?

To summarize, I think the required "familiarity" with the Air 2 and frequent manipulation of the device probably has more relevance than a single - or a few - training sessions delivered months or years ago on using some other type of device.

 

[saxman242]

So when BSAC say that people revert to training, they mean training not practice. You are saying that the practice replaces the trained response. They are explicitly saying that is not the case and people revert to training. In the BSAC case that is because in a couple of hundred OOA incidents over 10 years there was a small number of primary donates and one primary take. Mostly people did as originally trained, which in BSAC’s case is secondary take.

And do those BSAC reports say anything about how the people that responded in those OOA incidents trained/practiced? You can't claim that as evidence that people fell back on their original training vs what they practiced without data that also shows that they practice different than what they were originally trained.


I 100% agree that course work training is to give a foundation of good practices, but it takes prolonged repetition to develop ingrained habits. The idea that someone would take a course and do something a few times, then spend years practicing something different, and in an emergency, would fall back to the course training vs what has been practiced is ridiculous.



If you'd rather argue based on the word for word definition of "training"

 

[KenGordon]

And do those BSAC reports say anything about how the people that responded in those OOA incidents trained/practiced? You can't claim that as evidence that people fell back on their original training vs what they practiced without data that also shows that they practice different than what they were originally trained.


I 100% agree that course work training is to give a foundation of good practices, but it takes prolonged repetition to develop ingrained habits. The idea that someone would take a course and do something a few times, then spend years practicing something different, and in an emergency, would fall back to the course training vs what has been practiced is ridiculous.



If you'd rather argue based on the word for word definition of "training"
View attachment 587845

Yes. The BSAC incident reports capture the qualifications of all involved. For an OOA incident the chances are it comes from the branch Diving Officer and names names. For death so and such like it might come from other sources such as chambers, the RNLI or the coroner in which case it might not be so precise.

I would expect to be better than 90% correct telling anyone what technique was initially trained for by any member of our branch based on when they learned and with whom. None learned with an Air2. Some did learn primary donate in the days before the octopus.a few have been trained in primary donate by TDI etc for twinset diving.

 

[saxman242]

Yes. The BSAC incident reports capture the qualifications of all involved. For an OOA incident the chances are it comes from the branch Diving Officer and names names. For death so and such like it might come from other sources such as chambers, the RNLI or the coroner in which case it might not be so precise.

I would expect to be better than 90% correct telling anyone what technique was initially trained for by any member of our branch based on when they learned and with whom. None learned with an Air2. Some did learn primary donate in the days before the octopus.a few have been trained in primary donate by TDI etc for twinset diving.

None of that addresses how they have practiced since their initial training though. With the way that diving is done with BSAC, I would expect quite a bit fewer divers to depart from the original training, so it doesn't surprise me that in the incident reports, there are fewer cases of people falling back on "non-standard" practices. That doesn't make that representational of global diving as a whole though.

 

[Gareth J]

I think a simple demonstration of how poor skill retention is is generally is if you look at the number of incidents that occur during DSMB deployment.
That being a skill you would expect people to be competent in.
DSMB deployment is done far more regularly that AAS ascents, and is significantly, less stressful!

 

[Edward3c]

I disagree. Using "training" as what is practiced is not redefining words to suit, it's what training is. Practice is what develops skills and I have a very difficult time believing that bsac (or anyone else) would seriously expect ingrained skills from a class once, rather than consistent skills that are practiced with every dive and built through experience.

I run monthly open water training on the West Coast of Scotland. Students initially trained by other agencies, like PADI, are surprised by the their lack of OOG competence, including those holding Rescue Certification. This is only anecdotal though.

None of that addresses how they have practiced since their initial training though. With the way that diving is done with BSAC, I would expect quite a bit fewer divers to depart from the original training, so it doesn't surprise me that in the incident reports, there are fewer cases of people falling back on "non-standard" practices. That doesn't make that representational of global diving as a whole though.

Students for all diver grades; Ocean Diver, Sports Diver, Dive Leader and Advanced Diver have to perform OOG skills and full blown rescues of an incapacitated diver. So yes, members do have to refresh their skills.
In many clubs the Diving Officer requires all active divers to refresh their rescue skills an the beginning of each diving season.