Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[saxman242]

This “blindly following dogma” isn’t something that happens in the real world and is far from what is being taught in “Kool aid” classes.

I have met some who sip kool aid and recognize that it is useful teachings that are based in giving a team a common tool set to rely on when doing specific types of diving but understand it isn't for everyone/all types of diving. I have also met some who chug the kool aid, take it as gospel, and blindly follow, able only to justify why they do things a certain way because that's what they were told.


A good chunk of the counter arguments in this thread against carrying a pony tank basically consist of a couple points:

If you do proper gas planning, you shouldn't ever be in a situation where you run out of air.
If you just maintain your equipment, equipment failure can't just happen.
If you practice good buddy procedures, their air supply is available to you.
If all that fails, you can just do a CESA.​

I struggle with understanding how anyone can look at that list and not call ******** that any of those are reliable statements, unless they're blindly following training that preaches that without thinking deeper about it. I don't understand how anyone can consider being in an situation where redundant air is needed and think it's a better idea to wait to get air from a buddy, even if they're right near by, or do an emergency ascent to the surface instead of simply grabbing a redundant regulator they have on them. I can, however, get behind how one's personal risk tolerance is such that they feel that they've sufficiently lowered the risk by doing gas planning, maintenance, and buddy training that they feel they have the tools to safely deal with an emergency in a way that exceeds the inconvenience of carrying a pony with them.

These days, most everyone carries an octopus to provide air to another diver in the case of an emergency. There is little argument to be had that the inconvenience and extra failure point of carrying an second secondary doesn't justifiably offset the risk of an emergency situation, despite proper planning and equipment maintenance. If we collectively actually believed the idea that with proper gas planning and equipment maintenance, failure wasn't an option, there'd be no point in doing so.

As a hypothetical, let's say you're at 80 feet with 50 cu ft of air in your tank. You've started your ascent. You have a low pressure hose fail, giving you less than 60 seconds before your tank is empty. You have three options for immediately dealing with the problem:

1. You switch to your secondary regulator which is 6" from your mouth (which happens to be attached to a pony tank that for this hypothetical you're carrying) and safely ascend.
2. You signal to your buddy that is 6' away that you need their secondary regulator and safely ascend while tethered to them.
3. You perform a CESA and ascend way faster than you desire to.

I can't fathom how anyone, given those 3 choices, could honestly say anything other than #1. Now, the cost(be it in inconvenience, financially, whatever metric you want to use) of giving yourself option #1 may not be personally worth it to you, but how anyone can claim that the result, in the case of an emergency, isn't a better option baffles me.

There's of course the alternate view point which is that a pony isn't sufficiently large enough to be a redundant air supply, which is definitely a valid point for certain conditions. Then it just because a risk tolerance on the other side of things in that it's a personal choice if a pony is sufficient.

 

[Storker]

I struggle with understanding how anyone can look at that list and not call ******** that any of those are reliable statements, unless they're blindly following training that preaches that without thinking deeper about it. I don't understand how anyone can consider being in an situation where redundant air is needed and think it's a better idea to wait to get air from a buddy, even if they're right near by, or do an emergency ascent to the surface instead of simply grabbing a redundant regulator they have on them. I can, however, get behind how one's personal risk tolerance is such that they feel that they've sufficiently lowered the risk by doing gas planning, maintenance, and buddy training that they feel they have the tools to safely deal with an emergency in a way that exceeds the inconvenience of carrying a pony with them.

Whether someone chooses to carry a pony is of course a personal choice based on diving conditions and personal risk acceptance.

But when we mitigate risks, it's usually good practice not just to look at different scenarios, but also to do a realistic assessment of probability. Someone used to unreliable instabuddies may reasonably consider carrying a pony a very good idea. A DM assisting an OW class, essentially diving solo, may reasonably consider carrying a pony a very good idea. A solo diver, definitely. But for someone buddy diving, with a proper buddy, the probability of being way up the proverbial creek with no buddy in sight may be so small that the hassle of slinging (and maintaining) a pony is overkill given the probability of that particular scenario versus other proverbial creek situations.

Which may be the reason for pony bottles being just slightly more common than hens' teeth in my neck of the woods, where proper buddy diving is the norm.

 

[saxman242]

Whether someone chooses to carry a pony is of course a personal choice based on diving conditions and personal risk acceptance.

But when we mitigate risks, it's usually good practice not just to look at different scenarios, but also to do a realistic assessment of probability. Someone used to unreliable instabuddies may reasonably consider carrying a pony a very good idea. A DM assisting an OW class, essentially diving solo, may reasonably consider carrying a pony a very good idea. A solo diver, definitely. But for someone buddy diving, with a proper buddy, the probability of being way up the proverbial creek with no buddy in sight may be so small that the hassle of slinging a pony is overkill given the probability of that particular scenario versus other proverbial creek situations.

Which may be the reason for pony bottles being just slightly more common than hens' teeth in my neck of the woods, where proper buddy diving is the norm.

I absolutely agree; it's all a risk tolerance calculation. What confuses me is the belief that some have that a cesa or breathing off a buddy is a better option. It may be an acceptable option that sufficiently mitigates the risk and negates one's personally need to carry a pony. It simply comes down to does the hassle outweigh the benefits. I get that for many it does not. What I don't get is the argument as to if the benefits exist.

 

[Diving Dubai]

My "Issue" is not about carrying ponies. My issue is that often those carrying them get complacent.

Carrying a pony doesn't mean you can pay less attention to:

You gas contents
Your equipment serviceability and maintenance
Your buddy
Diving within your limits and experience

Too often in my experience some people just let their standards slip knowing that they have this redundant gas supply at hand.

A pony is just another line of defence - and extra level of safety but it doesn't replace any of the fundamental skills and procedures taught at OW level.

It would also help like any other basic skill, people regularly practiced. When the SHTF you want your reactions to be fluid and well practiced.

I'm not trying to preach nor are my comments aimed at anyone in particular. But they are based on witnessed events and actions of others.

And yes, when I first started to carry a pony, I let my skills slip too fortunately without any negative incidents. So this is based upon my own experience in order that others may learn.

 

[NAM001]

if given a choice between sharing air or donating a pony to an OOA diver ,,,,, I choose the later. especially in rougher waters.

 

[Fastmarc]

Too often in my experience some people just let their standards slip knowing that they have this redundant gas supply at hand.

Not discounting your personal observations, but I wonder if back in the day someone would have thought this when the octopus started to grow in popularity.

 

[BlueTrin]

I absolutely agree; it's all a risk tolerance calculation. What confuses me is the belief that some have that a cesa or breathing off a buddy is a better option. It may be an acceptable option that sufficiently mitigates the risk and negates one's personally need to carry a pony. It simply comes down to does the hassle outweigh the benefits. I get that for many it does not. What I don't get is the argument as to if the benefits exist.

I think you guys summarised it well:

• Pony is better than CESA
• Pony is better than buddy breathing (sharing the same reg)
• You shouldn’t become more complacent once you have a pony, but that’s true if any redundancy

IMHO, the only decent argument against a pony is: ‘I don’t believe that the risk of me needing the pony outweigh the cost/hassle because I do only recreational and dive in buddy pairs with serious buddies and decent equipment in conditions where failure is rare and are unlikely to cause death and/or injury’ or any statistical variant of this.

Feel free to correct me as I am a newbie

 

[doctormike]

I think you guys summarised it well:

• Pony is better than CESA
• Pony is better than buddy breathing (sharing the same reg)
• You shouldn’t become more complacent once you have a pony, but that’s true if any redundancy

IMHO, the only decent argument against a pony is: ‘I don’t believe that the risk of me needing the pony outweigh the cost/hassle because I do only recreational and dive in buddy pairs with serious buddies and decent equipment in conditions where failure is rare and are unlikely to cause death and/or injury’ or any statistical variant of this.

Feel free to correct me as I am a newbie

Pretty good summary for a newbie!

 

[Diving Dubai]

Not discounting your personal observations, but I wonder if back in the day someone would have thought this when the octopus started to grow in popularity.

I don't see the connection. Before Octopus you buddy breathed - taking it in turns with 1 reg.

If you mean that having a pony means you don't need to be concerned about your buddy because "you're alright" then I would disagree

 

[Fastmarc]

Can we inject a poll to see how many minds were changed. At 38 pages there must be some.
I can't stop looking at this thread until I know. Help...