Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[barth]

I think anyone coming along later to read about redundant air systems will have the point.

There is a thread that described how you could have stage (bottom) air, deco air, and pony (redundant) air all in the same bottle. You just have to know to leave the pony air alone.

Good luck with your friend, they are using a stage bottle that they told you is a pony bottle.

Good luck.

I agree with you that it’s not a pony anymore.

But when is a pony bottle a ponny bottle/independent doubles or a bottom stage?

Equipment

1 When you have 1 second stage connected to a single tank and 1 second stage connected to a pony bottle.

2 Same situation as above with 2 second stages on your single tank.

Gasplanning

A have enough gas for you and your buddy in your single tank

B in an emergency situation you don’t have enough gas in your single tank. The gas in your pony bottle is included in your minimum gas.

C During the dive you also use your pony for yourself the extend a dive.

For me 1a,1b,1c, 2b and 2c are independent doubles.( For that situation I would not use a”pony bottle” but doubles with open isolator. For 2a I would use a single tank without pony.)

 

[tarponchik]

He removed it and apologised more than once.
That action indicates (to me) he understood it was offensive and wrong. If he didn't h could have chosen to not do so.
Let's move on and get back to topic. If you cannot move past it, well just take a break from this thread might help.
Since that comment and the others relating is not relevant to the OP, maybe the mods can tidy up the thread and remove those post as it has no value to any one now joining this discussion or reading through.

Going back to the OP, the question for me is the question of the probability of the 1st stage catastrophic failure. I do not know the stats for this, and I do not know if anyone does. I have never witnessed this happening to somebody else, though I read sometime ago some anecdotal stories about Leo Di Caprio saving Bradley Cooper, or maybe this was some other celeb. But isn't servicing your reg yearly a reasonable alternative to ponies?

 

[Storker]

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[Storker]

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[leadduck]

Obviously divers have different personal subjective opinions on what level of safety they need, and two divers often disagree in that regard even for the same dive under the same conditions. So you may discuss the objective differences say between a pony bottle and a mono tank with an h-valve and what difference it may make under what condition, but in the end divers will still argue whether that difference is relevant or not.

 

[Gareth J]

Going back to the OP, the question for me is the question of the probability of the 1st stage catastrophic failure. I do not know the stats for this, and I do not know if anyone does. I have never witnessed this happening to somebody else, though I read sometime ago some anecdotal stories about Leo Di Caprio saving Bradley Cooper, or maybe this was some other celeb. But isn't servicing your reg yearly a reasonable alternative to ponies?

I don't know the stats on first stage failures. But on a personal level;

• I have had one good friend have a first stage fail catastrophically (The brass housing split).
• My first Open Water UK trip, in the middle of winter. Three divers (two with recently serviced regulators), had three first stage failures between them. Diver A iced a regulator, when't to his pony, Diver B, had a similar problem, switched to his pony. Diver A then had a second failure, diver C donated gas to diver A, from his pony. (pre twinsets in my group.)
• I had a student Ice a first stage, very close to the start of the dive. He when't on to my long hose.
• I had one regulator first stage that was prone to failure after servicing. Ten dives without problems after servicing and it was good.
• I had a seat delaminate in the summer on my CCR.

Those are the ones that come to mind with no effort.

Your highest risk is after having regulators serviced. Failures are disproportionally high after servicing. Often, because there is little time given to allow the regulator to 'bed in' . My favourite service centre used to leave all regulators 24hours with high pressure on them. Then test dive them, then double check the I/P and check there was no I/P creep. Most places just service them, put regulators back together, set them up to the manual, and give them back. (Not surprising, you don't really pay a lot for a regulator service.)


[1] Iced = free flow due to ice build up.

 

[Coztick]

But when you’re using sidemount, independent doubles or a pony it is not possible share gas between divers and have the tanks empty at the time.

Empty tanks isn't really the goal is it?
Breaking the surface in a controlled, safe manner with gas to spare is all that I am concerned with.
I know I have enough for me and I have at least 500 psi for you at the end of a dive. We can decide in 15ft of water, spgs in hand, how long our stop will be.
It's more important to me to ascend the last 15ft very slowly than do a full 3 min stop. As long as you can get an dsmb up and control the ascent any stop time is just a bonus.
Keep in mind, if someone has gone OOA at depth and come to you for gas, they probably don't have the skills to manually inflate at the surface or drop weight if needed. Be prepared to do it for them.
I think bouyancy control should revert to the diver donating gas as the recipient has already failed the skills portion of the dive and may be overweighted and decide to dump too much air when ascending.
Funny how many will hold the inflator overhead and vent too much as they kick to the surface instead of in front to control the level of gas in the wing automatically.
Just because my sm tanks are independent, or for that matter different sizes, does not mean I can't manage gas reserves in your favor.
By choosing doubles I understand I have to take on more tasks and responsibilities including gas management, training and equipment implementation, maintanance and purchase. I'm happy with my choices but I certainly don't try to impose them on others.

Dive and let dive

 

[saxman242]

Going back to the OP, the question for me is the question of the probability of the 1st stage catastrophic failure. I do not know the stats for this, and I do not know if anyone does. I have never witnessed this happening to somebody else, though I read sometime ago some anecdotal stories about Leo Di Caprio saving Bradley Cooper, or maybe this was some other celeb. But isn't servicing your reg yearly a reasonable alternative to ponies?

Ignoring that a lot of failures seem to happen shortly after servicing, would you agree that annually servicing your regs is a reasonable alternative to carrying octopuses?

 

[Storker]

would you agree that annually servicing your regs is a reasonable alternative to carrying octopuses?

If you don't carry an octopus, I see no other alternative than buddy breathing off your primary if your buddy is OOG. And that is currently considered high-risk and has been taken out of the OW curriculum. If you don't carry an octopus, what are you going to do if your buddy is OOG?

Also, I don't understand how annually servicing your regs isn't compatible with carrying an octopus.

 

[saxman242]

If you don't carry an octopus, I see no

alternative than buddy breathing off your primary if your buddy is OOG. And that is currently considered high-risk and has been taken out of the OW curriculum. If you don't carry an octopus, what are you going to do if your buddy is OOG?

Also, I don't understand how annually servicing your regs isn't compatible with carrying an octopus.

Well, the argument that seems to be constantly popping up is that the need for a pony is invalidated by proper care, maintenance, and planning. If proper care, maintenance, and planning is all that's needed to prevent a failure of your primary air supply, what is the point of people carrying an octopus?


Now personally, I don't think that is a valid argument and that most would agree that some degree of redundancy is a good plan. That's either a pony or a buddy. The biggest difference between the two is that a pony is available instantaneously and doesn't require trusting a stranger to have their act together.