Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

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We dive solo from my boat. Everyone is self-sufficient and has enough experience to know how to maintain their gear. ...

My no-pony policy is not aimed at making diving less safe.

But it does - just not in your (?infallable?) opinion. ==> Ignore

But tough talk aside, if you ever do dive with other people, you might be surprised what a large diver who hasn't taken a breath in a minute or so is capable of doing.

Don't really care how large. Their size won't make the hose longer. And with my situational awareness, I will see them coming and have the pony reg ready to hand over.

My pony's reg is on a mag QR on my right shoulder. I think I said IF I ever dive with another diver or divers, they get an explaination of which reg to grab - the yellow one that is always pressurized & ready to breathe from - and I have them try it several times before we splash.

Timing is everything. Why do problems always seem to occur at the wrong time--at least for me.

Because, if it happened at the right time it wouldn't be a problem.

Your rather egocentric selfish way of thinking is a danger to other divers when you push your beliefs onto them in the form of rules they must follow when they dive off of your boat.

... you only take your friends out- in which case it doesn't matter how absurd your rules are you can do as you please it's their choice whether they want to hang out with and dive with you.

Yep. I certainly wouldn't be one, no matter how nice the boat. It's a good thing he doesn't dive the wrecks in Lake George. Some of them require having a pony to be allowed to dive. No permit without one - no matter how many buddies, how experienced, and how well maintained their equipment.
 
I’m a technical and cave diver with a fair bit of diving under my belt. So let’s not try and pull rank on here, there are a lot bigger fish in this pond than you and I

Hi Ryan McShane,

I offer my sincerest apologies for my mistake. I could have sworn your tag line indicated that you had 0-24 dives logged. To iterate, my apologies for my mistake.

However, now I am really unnerved that a techie and cave diver would post such bilge. You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't need to ridicule others while you are diving with two sets of redundant gas on your tech dives (yours and your buddies).

Dive and Let Dive!

markm
 
And maybe you would both be happier. Not being snarky, I don’t get in the water without a pony on any dive, as mine is rigged to not even really notice it’s there. If max and his no pony rule invited me to dive, I’d politely decline, which wouldn’t stop me from inviting him on my boat, on which no one wears shoes, ever. And I’m 100% serious.

You must have very expensive carpet on your boat :eyebrow:


....






before you reply lol I get it, you are WAY more stable on a boat barefoot
 
The original AP Diving 'Buddy' Jackets came with a 1 litre bottle attached. They where designed so you could breath off the Jacket if required. This approach has fallen out of fashion (not to mention that you needed to clean the bag regularly to avoid catching something nasty), as has the Air2.

When I started, twin cylinder rigs where seldom seen. The small group doing deep diving, or wanting redundancy where using Pony's, that made you a small subset. Over time it became noticeable that the number using pony's increased, at the same time, many of us switched to twins. Then twins with decompression stages, then CCR with bailout.
(In fairness, twins where used back in the day - twin hose regulators - look at the Jacque Cousteau films.)
A lot of the change reflected the progressively deeper diving that was being done, not the extreme depths of the 1%, but the fact that larger and larger numbers where doing 50m diving, or doing mid range dives with long decompression penalties. Nitrox came onto the scene, which was adopted for decompression, before it was used on the shallower dives. Then Trimix.

Even when diving twins, we often used to switch back to singles with pony's for RIB diving. A single with pony was ideal for sub 35m diving, or wreck diving in the confined space of a RIB.
Much over 30m, then twins are a lot more optimal.

As someone also said, a Pony is like a Bailout on CCR, never to be used to extend the dive, used for emergency only.
There should always be sufficient gas to get you off the bottom and to complete any decompression penalty you have acquired. Thats how we used them.
Once you switch to using a Pony for decompression gas then its a stage, not a Pony.

When Nitrox became available, all of us on Twinsets dug our old ponies out and filled them with 50% and bolted them the side. Eventually we went to larger stages, then learnt our lessons and switch to Aluminium stages, much better than steel stages.

I think one of the reasons that few American divers use ponies and have such a negative attitude towards them, is because of the attitude to dives involving decompression.
It goes back to the fact that dives involving decompression are seen as some form of special diving.
In the UK, dives involving decompression are seen as normal recreational diving. As such, most UK divers do some diving with some amount of staged decompression. Because of this decompression diving and redundancy of breathing source is taught within the core diving program (as is Nitrox), and a high proportion of regular UK divers look to add some form of redundancy. Like a lot of divers, many don't want to do deep dives or large amounts of decompression, so twins are not desirable. But a small light cylinder, they can add to their single. With sufficient gas to get them safely back to the surface, is a sensible addition to their recreational diving kit.
In addition, we don't always have clear blue water, and wreck penetration is often part of UK diving (some times accidentally in poor vis'). So redundancy is a sensible addition.

So the simple answer to the original question, is YES. There is often a valid reason for a Pony Bottle.

why are aluminum stages much better than steel stages? and would the same reason apply to pony bottles? Reason i ask im thinking of buying a steel 22cf pony.

thanks
 
why are aluminum stages much better than steel stages? and would the same reason apply to pony bottles? Reason i ask im thinking of buying a steel 22cf pony.

thanks
I think they are preferred for stage bottles because they are neutraly buoyant and when you need stage bottles you are likely to be already loaded up on kit and bottles.

I’ll let someone more experienced confirm or correct me :)

Someone mentioned something similar in this thread:

Pros and cons - steel tank vs aluminum?
 
Because, if it happened at the right time it wouldn't be a problem..

Hi Kharon,

As usual, I like your posts and logical thinking.

I did not express myself well in the sentence you quoted and commented on.

We have divers on this thread who have thousands of dives and have never suffered a major or catastrophic failure where a pony bottle would have been a good piece of equipment to have. I have relatively few dives compared to them. I maintain my gear well and have trained techs inspect and overhaul the most critical pieces of gear. I have had issues u/w while others have never had a problem with a piece of equipment or a dive buddy.

My point is: some of us have both good luck and bad luck. My 1st stage that was catastrophically failing was inspected by two different dive shops just before it failed. I performed my due diligence.

Usually, I create my own good luck--it does not just happen to me. Redundancy rules on the ocean.

Sheet happens to some more than others. Life is not fair.

That was my point.

markm
 
I think they are preferred for stage bottles because they are neutraly buoyantl and when you need stage bottles you are likely to be full of kit and bottles.

I’ll let someone more experienced confirm or correct me :)

Someone mentioned something similar in this thread:

Pros and cons - steel tank vs aluminum?
Truth. And folks will look at you funny if you wear a steel stage. And you hand stages up or hang them on a line, and if you hang them on a line with other folks, they weigh down the hang line, and if you hand them up, someone may drop one.

There are 2 OMS 40’s on the wreck of the Rhine in the dry tortugas. Somewhere.
 
Hi Kharon,

As usual, I like your posts and logical thinking.

I did not express myself well in the sentence you quoted and commented on.

We have divers on this thread who have thousands of dives and have never suffered a major or catastrophic failure where a pony bottle would have been a good piece of equipment to have. I have relatively few dives compared to them. I maintain my gear well and have trained techs inspect and overhaul the most critical pieces of gear. I have had issues u/w while others have never had a problem with a piece of equipment or a dive buddy.

My point is: some of us have both good luck and bad luck. My 1st stage that was catastrophically failing was inspected by two different dive shops just before it failed. I performed my due diligence.

Usually, I create my own good luck--it does not just happen to me. Redundancy rules on the ocean.

Sheet happens to some more than others. Life is not fair.

That was my point.

markm
Maybe donating to this site will reverse your luck? LOL!

Chit happens, its how one deals with the situation that counts. I have not suffered a cat loss...but the little things can add up fast and a problem is usually a number of smaller issues blowing out of proportion into a much larger one. My wife splashed this past September with a relatively new BC and I watched her release valve separate and sink...she could not hold air! Fortunately there was a spare on the boat of similar make....I always run a checklist prior to splashing. Just a quick run through all moving parts to make sure they operate as designed...once you splash, then we hope for the best.
 
::shrug:: Maybe it isn't really redundancy. I guess it's a question of definitions.

One of the implicit "elephant in the room" thoughts during most discussions of pony bottles is that the pony bottle is there to deal with the diver who "doesn't monitor their SPG."

It is my observation that relatively few divers monitor their SPG. Those divers who have a relatively low SAC rate get away with it because their dives conclude for other reasons before they run out of air. Either their hour's up, their buddy or DM wants to ascend, or they reach their NDL. Divers who through a combination of inexperience and physiology have high SAC rates are the ones who run out of air.

A pony bottle fixes that, not because it's redundant equipment, but because it is a source of redundant air. You can put that same redundant air in the primary dive cylinder, and fix the problem with a lot less gear.

Now, it isn't always possible to get a cylinder of suitable size, because the industry has standardized on AL80s, and some places don't have any alternatives or can only offer you a short-filled AL100 that actually has 90 cf of gas in it, and so for people in this situation, having a pony bottle makes sense.
This misses the point.
The pony is backup for an equipment failure...o-ring, reg, whatever. It is not for giving you extra air on a dive that could have carried on your back in a bigger tank.
Yes, it is there if you run out of air.....which you might do even if you have a low SAC rate and are diligent about SPG checking if you happen to have an equipment failure.
 


One of the implicit "elephant in the room" thoughts during most discussions of pony bottles is that the pony bottle is there to deal with the diver who "doesn't monitor their SPG."

It is my observation that relatively few divers monitor their SPG. Those divers who have a relatively low SAC rate get away with it because their dives conclude for other reasons before they run out of air. Either their hour's up, their buddy or DM wants to ascend, or they reach their NDL. Divers who through a combination of inexperience and physiology have high SAC rates are the ones who run out of air.
Diving yesterday (Scottish West Coast), not only did I check my own tank contents, but asked my buddy for theirs. The fact I was diving with an instructor makes no difference to me, if I’m leading I want to know their remaining gas so there are no surprises.
 

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