Calling a dive

[drrich2]

But ‘everything you can’ isn’t pretty clear when talking about a recreational activity that seems decently safe the overwhelming majority of the time. We could play ‘what if’ scenarios to the point we could justify applying the buddy system to driving to the grocery store or riding a bicycle. Something could happen; your personal guardian should be on hand to spring into action.

There’s a big difference between an understanding of mutual willingness to render aid should something evident come up, vs. taking on a ‘duty of care’ like a doctor taking a patient under his care, or a teacher taking a minor child into her class.

The perception of how hazardous scuba diving in benign conditions is, and how much is to be done to mitigate that risk, seems rather arbitrary. From what I understand, in homes the bathroom can be relatively dangerous. Glad we don’t need supervision for that...

Richard.

 

[TMHeimer]

But ‘everything you can’ isn’t pretty clear when talking about a recreational activity that seems decently safe the overwhelming majority of the time. We could play ‘what if’ scenarios to the point we could justify applying the buddy system to driving to the grocery store or riding a bicycle. Something could happen; your personal guardian should be on hand to spring into action.

There’s a big difference between an understanding of mutual willingness to render aid should something evident come up, vs. taking on a ‘duty of care’ like a doctor taking a patient under his care, or a teacher taking a minor child into her class.

The perception of how hazardous scuba diving in benign conditions is, and how much is to be done to mitigate that risk, seems rather arbitrary. From what I understand, in homes the bathroom can be relatively dangerous. Glad we don’t need supervision for that...

Richard.

Agree with you completely. The only time I've even heard of or thought of what one buddy's duty of care toward another is when I've been on ScubaBoard…..There have also been discussions about dive pros on vacation and what they may be responsible for above and beyond the regular customer diver.
But for a normal duty of care toward a buddy, is this defined or spelled out in legal terms anywhere?

 

[Storker]

there's no clear consensus on what 'duty of care' (a.k.a. what being 'responsible for' means) one has towards a buddy. I

The only time I've even heard of or thought of what one buddy's duty of care toward another is when I've been on ScubaBoard…

And the only time I've even heard the term "duty of care" in the same sentence as the term "diving buddy" is when that sentence has been uttered by an American. I guess it's a cultural thing.

When I buddy up, it isn't "you" and "I" anymore for me. It's "we". Like in "let's do this dive together", not "whats my obligation to you?". The more I shirk my responsibility as a buddy, the higher the risk my buddy won't be a proper buddy either. Being a good buddy, looking out for my buddy, helping them with what the need helping with, is my insurance premium for them being a good buddy to me instead of signalling "Ok, that sucks. Buh-bye" if i need assistance.

 

[ScubaBunga]

A bit off the original topic but related to the recent posts - pre-dive buddy discussion - especially with instabuddies! What gear compared to yours, how do they dive (are they an air suckin dog...are you)? If there is a difference in gear, comfort level, etc. What to do in that situation - especially with enough buddies for others to continue a dive? I've had many pre-dive discussions with instabuddies where I've mentioned I like to stay down as long as possible - if they need to go up, I'm fine if they just let me know and then go. If they were uncomfortable with that discussion, I'd go up with them. Now these were on dive boats so there were several other people around in the boat and in the water. Situations vary - as would the details of the pre-dive discussion.

 

[Neilwood]

I can live with and sleep at night over a lost dive vs lost diver that I was "responsible" for on a dive.

I hope your son understands the importance of such things... Had you had a specific discussion on being an air hog and he being comfortable finding his way back then a different course could have been taken in my opinion. But without that conversation your actions are admirable.

I think this is the point of view we should all take when we agree to buddy dive - we are both responsible for each other and as such everything should be joint decisions

And the only time I've even heard the term "duty of care" in the same sentence as the term "diving buddy" is when that sentence has been uttered by an American. I guess it's a cultural thing.

When I buddy up, it isn't "you" and "I" anymore for me. It's "we". Like in "let's do this dive together", not "whats my obligation to you?". The more I shirk my responsibility as a buddy, the higher the risk my buddy won't be a proper buddy either. Being a good buddy, looking out for my buddy, helping them with what the need helping with, is my insurance premium for them being a good buddy to me instead of signalling "Ok, that sucks. Buh-bye" if i need assistance.

If buddying with someone for the first time, I think it is incumbent on both divers to have a reasonably frank discussion on what our experience is, how good we are on air, any expectations. Quite a simple conversation with both divers hopefully coming out with something similar to the following:

I'm Neil, I have 50+ dives at home (UK) and here (insert location) so pretty happy with the conditions (or never dived in y conditions). I am AOW with some rescue training (with another agency but not certified yet). My gear is as follows (follow basic BWRAF run through). When we buddy I would like to be alongside you to make it easier to watch each other. I like to take my time so won't be breaking speed records. We agree to turn the dive at 100 Bar, 25minutes or 2 minutes to NDL whichever comes first. Keep me up to date about them so we can adjust if need be. I normally get fairly close to NDL with a tank - how's about you? With regards to calling a dive, either of us at any point without recriminations - I might ask why when we get back to understand if there was a problem but I won't question it underwater.

Only takes a couple of minutes and that means everyone is happy. Better to have an understanding of what each divers expectations are before you splash.

 

[Storker]

If buddying with someone for the first time, I think it is incumbent on both divers to have a reasonably frank discussion on what our experience is, how good we are on air, any expectations. Quite a simple conversation with both divers hopefully coming out with something similar to the following:

I'm Neil, I have 50+ dives at home (UK) and here (insert location) so pretty happy with the conditions (or never dived in y conditions). I am AOW with some rescue training (with another agency but not certified yet). My gear is as follows (follow basic BWRAF run through). When we buddy I would like to be alongside you to make it easier to watch each other. I like to take my time so won't be breaking speed records. We agree to turn the dive at 100 Bar, 25minutes or 2 minutes to NDL whichever comes first. Keep me up to date about them so we can adjust if need be. I normally get fairly close to NDL with a tank - how's about you? With regards to calling a dive, either of us at any point without recriminations - I might ask why when we get back to understand if there was a problem but I won't question it underwater.

Only takes a couple of minutes and that means everyone is happy. Better to have an understanding of what each divers expectations are before you splash.

This.

And adjust as needed. If I've had some 20-30 - or more - dives with the bloke, it's "wanna go slow or extra slow today? Are you good? Am I good?" (goes over gear, checks gas), go.

 

[W W Meixner]

This.

And adjust as needed. If I've had some 20-30 - or more - dives with the bloke, it's "wanna go slow or extra slow today? Are you good? Am I good?" (goes over gear, checks gas), go.

To All...

This is my third note on this topic...

It may help some of you to take ''self reliant/solo courses...

Showing up on a charter solo...especially if it was a last minute walk-on is always a crap shoot...and the party most responsible for being ''odd man out'' may be the person that looks back at you in the mirror...

Something else that compounds the aborted dive problem comes from renting unfamiliar/questionable gear...especially from resorts where service and maintenance are unknown entities...

The more prior planning you make...the less likely you are to have issues...

Further...to prior planning...ask as many questions as you can about site conditions...especially...current...visibility...ambient light at depth...creature features...especially sharks/large eels...water temperature as it relates to the exposure protection you're wearing...if you have any issues with any of these...you should not be booking the dive(s) in the first place...

Finally...go through your gear on a regular basis and take the time pre-dive to check everything that you're using...check hoses/straps/IP/all your electronics/zippers/snaps and buckles...if something is broken fix it immediately...never put anything away broken as you will likely forget to fix it and next dive/season...it will still be broken...

Unfamiliar environments are the worst place to attempt making ''giant leaps'' outside your comfort zone or training and personal experience level...

If you're lucky...that insta-buddy...which by the way is a somewhat derogatory term...may be the best...most qualified diver on the boat...so try not to abort the dive and ruin his/her day...

When two solo divers...previously unknown to one another...are paired up on a boat charter...which one is the ''insta-buddy''...

Dive Safe...

Warren

 

[TMHeimer]

And the only time I've even heard the term "duty of care" in the same sentence as the term "diving buddy" is when that sentence has been uttered by an American. I guess it's a cultural thing.

When I buddy up, it isn't "you" and "I" anymore for me. It's "we". Like in "let's do this dive together", not "whats my obligation to you?". The more I shirk my responsibility as a buddy, the higher the risk my buddy won't be a proper buddy either. Being a good buddy, looking out for my buddy, helping them with what the need helping with, is my insurance premium for them being a good buddy to me instead of signalling "Ok, that sucks. Buh-bye" if i need assistance.

Good & logical, and I agree with the posts that followed. Still interested in legal "duty of care" toward a buddy (in US or anywhere). Any lawyers out there?