OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

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As any doctor is who certifies that someone is "safe" to dive. Too many unknowns.
You should read the link. Stuff was apparent which should have meant that tests were done which were not done. So from the sound of it the doctor didn’t do his job. If, on the other hand, he had done what is required and found the diver passed then there would be nothing to answer.

There are text books of conditions which preclude diving. The doctor’s job is to check for those, not invent new and interesting issues. It those are not issues, and the drugs are not an issue then they pass, surely? That is a justifiable process.
 
You should read the link. Stuff was apparent which should have meant that tests were done which were not done. So from the sound of it the doctor didn’t do his job. If, on the other hand, he had done what is required and found the diver passed then there would be nothing to answer.

There are text books of conditions which preclude diving. The doctor’s job is to check for those, not invent new and interesting issues. It those are not issues, and the drugs are not an issue then they pass, surely? That is a justifiable process.
What percentage of diver deaths over 50 years old do you think start with heart attacks? Any doctor that says a person 50 or older is OK to dive could later be accused of putting them at risk because the stats show that diving can put you in stress situations that can bring on heart attacks that could be recovered from it the person was not immersed in water.
Cardiac Health & Your Risk of Death While Diving | The Heart & Diving - DAN Health & Diving
 
Any doctor that says a person 50 or older is OK to dive could later be accused of putting them at risk because the stats show that diving can put you in stress situations that can bring on heart attacks that could be recovered from it the person was not immersed in water.
I have mostly refrained from replying to the later posts in this thread until now, but I can't restrain myself any longer. While the comment above seems to be correct, it's just not the way medicine works, whether we get sued or not.
My responsibility as a diving physician is to evaluate a member's safety for diving. Relative contraindications are different from absolute contraindications.
Sure, lots of divers over 50 (I am 68 and dive hard) likely have cardiovascular disease. That doesn't make it a contraindication to diving. Is it a contraindication to enjoying your life?

No, what really occurs is the physician evaluates the divers condition, counsels the diver about the relative risk that he is taking on by a exerting himself underwater, and documents that discussion in the medical record. If the doctor doesn't think the patient is at significant risk for a sudden cardiovascular event, then it's reasonable to sign the form, having documented that it's the diver's decision how far to push himself. When the lawsuit by the family inevitably occurs, the court is shown that the physician had a discussion with the responsible diver who made his own risk/benefit decision.

Yes, there are medical conditions that I will not sign off on , no matter how "normal" the diver may appear in my office. That's because the relative risk is too high on my personal scale. What that doesn't mean, is that I won't sign off on garden-variety medical conditions which may come and go, or which are minimally likely to occur while underwater, merely requiring that the diver use some judgment before deciding when to splash.

Yes, the form is liability protection for the training shop. Yes the medical form may be liability protection for the boat operator for those companies, or in those countries that require it. But most important, having a "Yes" box which necessitates a medical evaluation is education for the diver. If the condition is "signed off" then it is most likely accompanied by a discussion in the office as to what precautions the diver should take.The standard explanatory pages which accompany the diving medical form are quite educational, even for a non-hyperbaric medicine physician, and enable them to do a fairly good job of advising their patient regarding the risks of what they're about to undertake. If the condition is complex, then a referral to a diving medical specialist might be appropriate, though this is not often necessary.

Of course there are always the stories, like the GP who advised earplugs for the diver worried about an ear infection, but those kinds of things are the exception, rather than the rule. A simple read of the explanatory pages with the medical form is enough to clue most physicians in to the basic physiology that is at issue.

The last sentence in the DAN article wasn't: "don't dive!" It was, "The best way to prevent SCD is thus to prevent heart disease and to maintain physical fitness and wellness as you age."

My 2¢? Be honest in checking yes. Get the exam. Bring the explanatory pages along for your doctor. Don't settle for a 10 minute visit.

Dive safe!
Diving Doc
 
Yes, there are medical conditions that I will not sign off on , no matter how "normal" the diver may appear in my office. That's because the relative risk is too high on my personal scale.

Have you ever considered that the risk isn't too high on the diver's own personal scale? I can't help but wonder how many of those divers you refuse to sign off on will keep shopping around for another doc who will sign them off rather than simply walking way and saying "Oh well I guess I'll take up golf".

The fact that you will refuse to sign off on some medical conditions and the fear of a potential diver that they may encounter a diver such as you who pulls the plug on their diving is enough for them to omit the medical condition on the form because in their minds, if they're willing to take the risk, then who are you or any other doctor to tell them what they can't do?
 
As any doctor is who certifies that someone is "safe" to dive. Too many unknowns.
You guys really need to read what the forms say.
What thd doctor signs says, "I find no medical conditions that I consider incompatible with diving."
That is NOT the same as saying someone is safe to dive.
 
Have you ever considered that the risk isn't too high on the diver's own personal scale? I can't help but wonder how many of those divers you refuse to sign off on will keep shopping around for another doc who will sign them off rather than simply walking way and saying "Oh well I guess I'll take up golf".

The fact that you will refuse to sign off on some medical conditions and the fear of a potential diver that they may encounter a diver such as you who pulls the plug on their diving is enough for them to omit the medical condition on the form because in their minds, if they're willing to take the risk, then who are you or any other doctor to tell them what they can't do?
You keep saying this over and over, without a shred of evidence. You've invented a strawman (people don't say YES because they apparently know more than the doctor or have an obsessive fear of being denied) and are having a wonderful time talking about it.
 
...then who are you or any other doctor to tell them what they can't do?

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
Live and let dive. If I give you my best advice, and you doctor shop until you get what you want, more power to you! I won't lose too much sleep when something I said might happen, happens.

And if you know you have issues and say "No" to all the boxes anyway, more power to you. Hope your luck holds!

But I think that's different than a blanket statement (which I'm not saying you made) that the medical form is a waste of time, or is ONLY liability protection for the shop. When someone comes to me, we talk about what it means to have a Yes. Most likely you get signed off, because the risk is low. But you also get educated on when you still shouldn't dive because of your condition.
The medical form is for your benefit, too. If only because of the discussion you have to have with a doc.
 
You keep saying this over and over, without a shred of evidence. You've invented a strawman (people don't say YES because they apparently know more than the doctor or have an obsessive fear of being denied) and are having a wonderful time talking about it.

There's "eye witness testimony" from at least one poster on this thread, there's a link to an article posted about how many student divers lie on scuba medical forms because they're afraid they'll be denied the ability to scuba dive, and an internet search on "do people lie on scuba medical forms" reveals pages of links in the affirmative. Including the ones posted below. It's hard to believe, that you, as a scuba diving medical professional, are not aware of this rather popular trend.

Alert Diver | To Lie or Not to Lie?

Non-disclosure of medical condition (diabetes)?

And if you know you have issues and say "No" to all the boxes anyway, more power to you. Hope your luck holds!.

As discussed previously on this thread, failing to check a "yes" box does not prevent a diver from discussing his medical conditions with his doctor and taking appropriate precautions.
 
As discussed previously on this thread, failing to check a "yes" box does not prevent a diver from discussing his medical conditions with his doctor and taking appropriate precautions.
In my experience, it's usually not a question of divers with known medical conditions checking No to avoid some hassle.
Rather it's the upset diver who is told he had to have an exam after checking yes, who walks away from the consult with more understanding of the underlying problem, who becomes a safer diver as a result.
The scenario you paint is just a longer trial in the courtroom. Because the scenario you posit: of a diver who knows he has issues but lies on the form to be able to continue to dive, eventually gets found out. The dive op's lawyer discovers what doctor the diver had, gets the medical records, who tells the jury that this diver had known medical conditions that he was counseled about, lied on the form, and died.
It's a hassle for the dive op, it's a PITA for the doc who had to give a deposition, and it's a losing proposition for the divers family. To the extent that this scenario really happens, things work out the way they should: either the diver gets away with it and is happy, or he doesn't get away with it, but apart from the legal expense, neither the dive op nor the doctor loses.
 

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