OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[TMHeimer]

I've been away again for 2-3 weeks. Most times I get back to internet service I find and old topic being re-hashed with lengthy posts, all of which I just can't read.
My experience from when I was a student taking various courses was that the instructor(s) usually just said. "Answer Yes or No to all of these questions. Keep in mind that if you answer Yes to even one, you will need a Dr.s' note/release to take the course". Personally, I read this as telling the truth, but with a unnoticible blink of the eye. Make of that what you will.

 

[KenGordon]

In America, a doctor can be sued whether or not they were qualified and did due diligence. Anybody can sue anybody else in civil court for any reason. The validity of the claim is decided in court. The costs of pursuing the claim is borne by the party suing. The cost of the defense is borne by the party being sued. If the claim is unsuccessful, there seldom is repayment of the costs of the defense to the person being sued by the person who unsuccessfully sued.

Of course, but does this actually happen? Is it the case that a person goes and gets a medical from a qualified doctor, they get it wrong (or not), the person dies and the estate sues and wins? Or is this fantasy lawyerism?

Isn’t a medical lower risk than actually treating someone, especially if you keep notes and know what you are doing. It isn’t entirely a guessing game.

 

[Jcp2]

Nuisance lawsuits are not uncommon for physicians, and depending on the case, may be settled by the malpractice insurance company with a payout because the time cost of a successful defense is onerous, similar to what is faced by any business owner.
The difference is that these frequent nuisance settlements are recorded in a national database along with the more infrequent valid malpractice settlement without distinct. This database is open to public inquiry and is used as a basis for assessing competency and insurance premium risk. Hence the risk aversion for many physicians.
I can totally see the scenario where either an honest physician without dive medicine knowledge refuses to sign the form at all as they don’t feel comfortable with what’s being asked of them as it is outside the scope of their practice, or they look very carefully at the guideline sheet given with the form and look for any reason to disqualify the patient as they honestly cannot say that the patient is fit to dive.

 

[KenGordon]

It is often a good idea to seek advice from people qualified to give it. Maybe that is true of medical advice for divers?

By the reasoning above nobody would ever pass a diving medical.

So, where is this database and can it be search for diving related lawsuits, and particularly ones involving passing a medical?

Insurance companies are quite good at excluding risky activities which cost them more than the insured is prepared to pay for. Surely if there were mobs of bereaved chasing down doctors, the doctors would find signing these forms is excluded from cover?

 

[jlcnuke]

It is often a good idea to seek advice from people qualified to give it. Maybe that is true of medical advice for divers?

By the reasoning above nobody would ever pass a diving medical.

So, where is this database and can it be search for diving related lawsuits, and particularly ones involving passing a medical?

Insurance companies are quite good at excluding risky activities which cost them more than the insured is prepared to pay for. Surely if there were mobs of bereaved chasing down doctors, the doctors would find signing these forms is excluded from cover?

If we had the same medical system that you're familiar with, then more people would likely go to a doctor recommended by DAN instead of their primary care physician. We don't and many people aren't going to spend the extra time and/or money to see someone trained in dive medicine.

There are many doctors who won't sign a diving medical form for lack of belief they could defend the choice in court in the US.

The database mentioned can't be searched to that level of detail by "common" people, I don't know if it patient/lawsuit sensitive details are in it otherwise but I can't imagine they would be with our HIPAA laws protecting patient privacy.

Malpractice insurance that didn't cover giving your medical opinion on fitness to perform an activity wouldn't be worth the premium to many doctors. I can't imagine any being willing to cover "all medical decisions/actions except signing off on a dive medical form", and no doctor with such a policy would ever sign a dive medical form if they were of sound mind if such a thing existed.

I understand we have different legal and medical systems and that's likely confusing to you, but let me provide a little perspective into the risk levels of doctors and getting sued. As an insulin dependent diabetic I once get a new primary care physician. With my diabetes well controlled I went in to ask for a new prescription for my insulin. The doctor, despite being a trained and certified general practice doctor with a patient with a common condition, was unwilling to write me that prescription. It wasn't because they weren't sure if I needed insulin, or that they thought my insulin dosage wasn't proper, it was simply that they didn't feel they understood enough about my condition and it's treatment so they would rather send me to a specialist (at extra costs to me) who could assume the responsibility for writing the prescriptions. There are doctors that won't sign anyone's dive medical form I'm sure. There are others that would likely sign everyone's dive medical form. The level of risk a doctor here is willing to take with regards to liability varies significantly from one doctor to the next.

 

[KenGordon]

Did you give up on that doctor and go to one with confidence to treat you?

What I am getting at is whether the being sued for giving an opinion really happens or whether it is a fiction used to justify ignoring the whole system.

 

[jlcnuke]

Did you give up on that doctor and go to one with confidence to treat you?

What I am getting at is whether the being sued for giving an opinion really happens or whether it is a fiction used to justify ignoring the whole system.

Yes, I quickly switched doctors and found one that would do what I want. And yes, doctors here are sued for much more trivial things than giving their medical opinion. Doctor's have been sued many times for signing off on sports physicals, it happens so much there are scholarly papers written on the subject such as "Medicolegal issues affecting sports medicine practitioners". Pearsall AW 4th, Kovaleski JE, Madanagopal SG Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2005 Apr; (433):50-7.
.

 

[KenGordon]

Yes, I quickly switched doctors and found one that would do what I want. And yes, doctors here are sued for much more trivial things than giving their medical opinion. Doctor's have been sued many times for signing off on sports physicals, it happens so much there are scholarly papers written on the subject such as "Medicolegal issues affecting sports medicine practitioners". Pearsall AW 4th, Kovaleski JE, Madanagopal SG Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2005 Apr; (433):50-7.
.

And for diver medicals?

 

[dmaziuk]

By the reasoning above nobody would ever pass a diving medical.

:shrug: Now that we live into the 90s and eat all sorts of chemistry, nobody in the diving demographics would honestly answer "no" to every question. So where does that leave us?

 

[SapphireMind]

Did you give up on that doctor and go to one with confidence to treat you?

What I am getting at is whether the being sued for giving an opinion really happens or whether it is a fiction used to justify ignoring the whole system.

The same could be said for lawsuits for dive instructors who accept the diver's word they are fit to dive. The system isn't actually doing anything, that's the point. It's trying to shift blame further away with the hopes the lawsuit won't land on them.

Scuba Diving Lawsuits/Legal: Wrongful Death, Waivers, Negligence discusses common dive lawsuits, and it seems that as long as we sign a waiver, it is very difficult to hold even a negligent instructor or DM responsible.

Alert Diver | Legal Liability in Diving general info
Why Divers Fail to Disclose Medical Conditions: Undercurrent 10/2009 general discussion about failing to disclose and why.
https://www.statesmanjournal.com/st...ton-woman-files-wrongful-death-suit/86148286/ Doctor being sued
Lying About Your Health Could Be Lethal: Undercurrent 01/2010 contrary opinion from mine - somewhat. I see a difference between disclosure and requiring a physician signature. I think disclosure is good, physician signature is nigh meaningless.