Best practices of GUE versus other dive programs ?

[boulderjohn]

Since heavy emphasis should be placed on, "boulderjohn has informed us," it is more like, "since boulderjohn became disgruntled with where he learned good buoyancy and trim and performing a skill from, he has been making efforts to redirect padi in that direction" ...

That is actually true, but I am not alone. There were others who made the effort.

I wish I could post all the emails that Karl Shreeves of PADI (and some others) and I had while working on the final draft. I will give you one example. One member of our writing group, Peter Rothschild (Peter Guy on ScubaBoard) pointed out to me something I had never noticed. At that time there was not a single picture or video in the OW program showing a diver swimming in trim. Every picture of a diver had the diver on the knees. I mentioned that to the PADI Director of Training, and his response was an immediate "OMG!, You're right!" He promised to fix that as soon as possible. Today everything is the opposite.

At about that same time, I got a Distinctive Specialty for Advanced Dive Planning approved, and the back and forth on that took nearly a month. We argued about whether the things in my course were all recreational or maybe too technical. In one case (rule of thirds), they said what I had in the course was not necessary for OW diving. I responded that it was, and explained why. When they came out with the current OW standards, there was suddenly a new emphasis on dive planning, and the rule of thirds is not only taught, it is on the final exam.

So, yes, I was disgruntled, and I still am with several things, but when I was disgruntled, I talked with them and reasoned with them. I learned that these are people who really do want to do the right thing, and if you can convince them that it is the right thing, they will do it. For that reason, they have my respect, and I defend them.

Other disgruntled people prefer to mock and ridicule without taking any positive steps to make things better. They act as if the leaders of that agency are pure evil who always plot to do the worst possible thing.

I prefer my approach.

 

[sigxbill]

Why all the concern with changing padi? If padi is lacking and GUE and others are not, then don't waste energy on changing padi; invest your energy in yourself and where good technique is already happening! I find the whole premise of, "what can we get from GUE and put into padi?" disgusting ...

 

[kelemvor]

PADI has estimated that it certifies 80% of the world's OW divers, but many people think they are purposely underestmating with that figure to avoid potential monopoly issues. Some people believe the total is closer to 90%. I believe the next largest agency is SSI, and after that I am not sure--probably NAUI or maybe SDI.

That's shocking to me. Nothing for or against PADI but really it's only an agency I read about online or see stickers from when traveling. In my little section of Florida, all the shops teach something else - although many have padi as an "also offered". The shop I happened to pick for OW was NAUI. The other shop I considered was SSI, and the shop that is my favorite to hang out in is NASE. When I signed up for classes, I had no idea there was a such thing as an "agency" or that there was more than one.

My point is that from my perspective PADI is an agency that just seems uncommon in my neck of the woods... and there's just under 10 dive shops within 30 minutes of my house.

I do realize there's there's a lot more to the world than my small part of Florida or even the US for that matter - although I thought BSAC dominated Europe.

Anyway, back on topic. From an agency perspective, didn't GUE kind of pioneer the extreme focus on buoyancy/trim/propulsion? It's obviously something that's already spreading to other agencies. Unless I'm mistaken, GUE has been a boon to all divers in this way.

Although I may have sounded anti-gue in my previous post in this thread I am not. Some GUE divers seem to have an attitude. Some do not. I had the opportunity to discuss GUE with a GUE diver at one of Scubaboard's Megadive events a couple years ago. I wish I could remember his name, but he was super reasonable and totally willing to discuss anything I wanted to know about GUE ad nauseum. I liked what he had to say so much that I went to Extreme Exposure to sign up for a class the next day just so I could experience it for myself. I aborted that plan when I saw the $750 price tag on their menu board... after all, I'm already a certified diver so it would have just been a class taken for fun.

 

[drrich2]

If padi is lacking and GUE and others are not, then don't waste energy on changing padi; invest your energy in yourself and where good technique is happening!

I think the idea is to get better practices distributed to the masses of incoming recreational divers currently reached mainly by PADI/SSI/SDI/NAUI, who haven't heard of GUE or DIR-style diving and might never hear of them. Divers who won't be making an informed decision about agency beyond 'PADI vs. SSI.'

The people you refer to as investing their energy in themselves and where good technique is happening, sound like already certified divers considering additional course work to advance themselves (e.g.: how many not-yet-certified, shopping-for-an-agency potential OW course seekers will read threads like this?), and yes, going to take, say, GUE Fundamentals rather than try to get the local dive shop's AOW morphed into it makes sense.

Put simply, even if we agree momentarily for sake of argument that GUE is much 'better' than PADI, let's say a new diving innovation will be deployed at the OW training level by one or the other. If PADI deploys it, that innovation will reach far more incoming divers and have far more impact.

If you want to quickly make a major impact on diving at the entering OW level, PADI is the obvious place to start.

Richard.

 

[elgoog]

I think the almost anal high regard of safety should be brought over also. When you feel a lot safer and more confident. Diving is simply more fun.

^ This!! I was taught a pre-dive check and very basic dive planning in my SSI OW as well and my instructor did emphasize that you should do it every time, but I hardly ever did one when diving with any group outside a class (some interesting stories as a result of that ...). And it's not just your own gear and safety but your entire team's - last weekend a very vigilant buddy noticed an issue on my rig that I hadn't. Also the part about knowing where your buddy is and knowing that your buddy knows where you are gives me the warm and fuzzies as well. Again, this was taught in my SSI class too but not ingrained in the way GUE did.

Another really important thing I think I would like all OW students to learn is comprehensive gas planning. Reading SB, I know many instructors here are teaching that already but having it be more universal and widespread would be awesome. I dove with a new-to-me buddy a week ago who is also GUE and we mentioned our SCR/DCR during the pre-dive. It's literally 1 phrase but knowing that and because I use the exact same system it meant that, during the dive, I knew almost always what his and my SPGs would read even before asking. This is a super duper great feeling - I don't want to be the buddy who asks for your SPG number every 10min but also kinda sorta want to know what is.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Why all the concern with changing padi? If padi is lacking and GUE and others are not, then don't waste energy on changing padi; invest your energy in yourself and where good technique is happening! I find the whole premise of, "what can we get from GUE and put into padi?"...

Kinda where I was going with my comment. I agree that at least the idea of performing all skills while in neutral buoyancy should be part of the OW programs of all agencies, because poor buoyancy by enough divers can take its toll on the reef, can impact air consumption and unduly shorten dives and thus enjoyment, etc. But I'm not so sure about other things that have been mentioned. As much as some of us mock the "octo-in-the-golden-triangle" thing, is it really causing harm out there? Although I believe primary-donate is a good thing, I don't read about a lot of botched octo donations that ended in an injured diver. If a diver is attracted to GUE stuff, then why not take GUE? Can't GUE and others coexist and each produce OW divers who are competent enough to do what they intended with the respective certs?

 

[EireDiver606]

Can't GUE and others coexist and each produce OW divers who are competent enough to do what they intended with the respective certs?

Agree with you but i I have to co exist with my CFT /CMAS club in Ireland ! Every week a member who hasn’t seen me before asks me about my gear setup before dive and comments on my trim after dive and is surprised I have less than 100 dives (not that dive numbers correspond to quality).

I can co exist with CMAS/CFT but I close my ears when higher ranked people in CMAS try to teach me things that are old and out dated that I know is hogwash from my GUE instructor. And I don’t mean that in a bad way, but I find it frustrating that Ireland is at least 10 years behind in terms of diving research and knowledge....and trim.....

 

[taimen]

I can co exist with CMAS/CFT but I close my ears when higher ranked people in CMAS try to teach me things that are old and out dated that I know is hogwash from my GUE instructor. And I don’t mean that in a bad way, but I find it frustrating that Ireland is at least 10 years behind in terms of diving research and knowledge....and trim.....

I want to defend CMAS because it has nothing to do with this. It must be your local diving (club) culture. International CMAS standards are vague about trim etc.
The best ow courses I know give CMAS certificates and are organized by clubs with strong DIR culture and plenty of GUE divers. CMAS readily allows this while some other agencies may not give as much freedom.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Sheck Exley actually came up with an idea to teach cavern skills to open water divers back in the 1980's, but never got it off the ground due to being busy exploring caves. When Andrew Georgitsis approached GUE with the idea for "fundies" he was told that the program would make the agency the laughing stock of the tech world. Andrew was allowed to teach it as a workshop. That's when I took GUE-F around '99. The program demonstrated its success and became the gateway course.

You mean GUE Fundies was Andrew's creation? How was GUE training structured before Andrew came on board?

 

[EireDiver606]

I want to defend CMAS because it has nothing to do with this. It must be your local diving (club) culture. International CMAS standards are vague about trim etc.
The best ow courses I know give CMAS certificates and are organized by clubs with strong DIR culture and plenty of GUE divers. CMAS readily allows this while some other agencies may not give as much freedom.

Interesting, I did not know that.

I was more focused on the fact that it’s in Ireland and we are unfortunately behind Europe in diving.