Spisni study

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Now, I'm looking at the second heat map graph (83m for 20 min). The fastest compartments (#1 to #4) are black from about 70 minutes run time, which makes be believe that they are neither supersaturated to any noticeable degree, nor are they on-gassing. But from a little more than 105 minutes through 120 minutes, they suddenly turn purple and thus are ongassing quite noticeably. Why do they suddenly start on-gassing when the diver is ascending to lower ambient pressure? Does it have something to do with the fact that this is a CCR dive with constant pPO2?

I'm not Simon, but I think that is the point when the diver surfaces and starts breathing atmospheric air, at which point their fastest tissues start on-gassing. Because previously the diver was breathing high PPO2 gas in the loop, the fastest tissues would have off-gassed to below 0.79 atmospheres absolute of inert gasses so actually start on-gassing at the surface.

The same will happen when breathing any high enough PPO2 gas, e.g. after 24 minutes breathing pure oxygen, (6 times the 4 minutes nitrogen half-time), the fastest compartment would be considered completely empty of inert gas.

Edit - snap, sorry Simon.
 
Hi Storker,

Those tissues become undersaturated with inert gas whilst breathing a high PO2 during the shallow stops, but when you arrive at the surface (around 108 minutes on the horizontal axis), come off oxygen and start breathing air again, they actually on-gas transiently to equilibrate with the inspired gas nitrogen pressure.

Simon

I'm not Simon, but I think that is the point when the diver surfaces and starts breathing atmospheric air, at which point their fastest tissues start on-gassing. Because previously the diver was breathing high PPO2 gas in the loop, the fastest tissues would have off-gassed to below 0.79 atmospheres absolute of inert gasses so actually start on-gassing at the surface.

The same will happen when breathing any high enough PPO2 gas, e.g. after 24 minutes breathing pure oxygen, (6 times the 4 minutes nitrogen half-time), the fastest compartment would be considered completely empty of inert gas.

Edit - snap, sorry Simon.

Thanks, folks. I didn't understand that the last part with on-gassing of the fast tissues was after surfacing. Realizing that, it's obvious.

As I said, stupid question.
 
I'd like to take exception to the "not stupid" comments. We should all be less reluctant to asking seemingly stupid questions. Which is why I insist on still calling my question stupid :)

On the other hand:
K9Ch3uH.jpg
 
I'd like to take exception to the "not stupid" comments. We should all be less reluctant to asking seemingly stupid questions. Which is why I insist on still calling my question stupid :)

On the other hand:
View attachment 464082
Storker - something I was told years ago, the only really stupid question is the one you didn't ask. Yeah someone might ask a question and , when faced with the answer think that it was so obvious that they think "Why did I even ask that?". Worse is not asking it but coming to your own incorrect conclusion.
 
Personally, I find RD practical because it takes practical considerations like gas logistics and diver training level into consideration.

Now that you say this, I think we had this discussion before on another thread and ended up agreeing to disagree.

That said, I'd like to get clarification on the quote above.

I fully understand the part about gas logistics because RD is tuned to suit DIR standard gasses. That said, if you enter the mix in a computer then the computer is also "tuned" to the standard gasses, so to me that point is kind of like saying that since a sundial is tuned to the sun that it is somehow more practical than a watch. However, we previously agreed to disagree so I'm not going to debate the nuances of this. I will concede the point that RD is, indeed, tuned to standard gasses.

It's the second part I don't get. RD is an ascent strategy, as opposed to a model. When you say it takes diver training level into consideration it triggers me to think that this whole time we've been comparing apples and oranges.

Since RD is not a deco model it is, indeed, unfair to compare it to something like Buhlmann. I think this is where your comment about practicality comes from and your comment above. Am I right about this?

If I zoom out to the big picture then I actually think you're right in a way. An ascent strategy IS a necessary part of the diver's repertoire. "Blindly" following a computer is probably not wise. In fact blindly following ANY ascent strategy is not wise. What you're saying here seems to be along those lines. Where the disconnect happens is when you assume that since a computer suggests a certain ascent approach that you are *obligated* to follow that approach. You are not.

Lately, a great deal of energy has been put into the discussion about *efficiency* of different ascent strategies and the corresponding risks. That said, you *could* make a deep stop using Buhlmann. You could, in fact, make an entire RD type ascent using Buhlmann. In some cases you may (probably would) have to add extra time to the last stop in order to compensate for the inefficiency of the ascent, but it could be done and I think it could be done safely as long as you considered your last stop a "mop up" stop to fix whatever you did before that.

Why do I know this? From personal experience.

Because I was making 3m/min ascents and deep stops in the shallow zone for a while too while using a Buhlmann computer and while it wasn't efficient and I ended up spending more time in the water than I had to, I wasn't ready (yet) to let go of that feeling that what the Buhlmann computer was suggesting could be right. In short, I was paradigm locked due to years of diving a certain way.

It just FELT wrong to ascend so fast.

And I think this may be exactly the same feeling you're having. I can TOTALLY relate to that. In my case I slowly changed my ascent approach over many dives by experimenting with slightly faster ascents. I only started doing that after reading online about the NEDU study. If I hadn't been exposed to that information I would still be doing exactly what I was doing before... namely making a deep ascent line with a long "mop up" stop at the end.

What I did may not work for you but I would like to challenge you to at least strap on a Buhlmann computer for a few dives and see what kind of mop up times it gives you. That may be valuable input to help you put your ascent strategy in perspective.

Just a thought. Not trying to convince you at this point, just sharing a brainstorm I had.

R..
 
Further to the above. It would be very interesting to see what kind of "mop up" times (I hope I've made sufficiently clear what I meant by that) the Buhlmann model would have calculated if the NEDU deep stop ASCENT STRATEGY was applied while running on the Bulhmann model.

In other (I'm sure, very sloppy) words, it would be interesting to see what Buhlmann would do if you ignored the suggested ascent strategy and did MOST of the ascent using the stops that BVM(3) calculated and just did the last couple of stops (the required stops) with the Bulhmann model and "let the tail wag" as it were.

My curiosity is what kind of "mop up" Buhlmann would calculate for the BVM(3) dive after the first required stop..... what the difference in run-time would be if we let go of the idea that the dives needed to have the same run time.... and even more interesting, what the post dive heat maps would look like.

I made two attempts to pose this question to Simon but I was utterly unable to make myself clear. If anyone else sees what I'm saying and can say it better than I can then please help me pose the question again.

R..
 
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In other (I'm sure, very sloppy) words, it would be interesting to see what Buhlmann would do if you ignored the suggested ascent strategy and did MOST of the ascent using the stops that BVM(3) calculated and just did the last couple of stops (the required stops) with the Bulhmann model and "let the tail wag" as it were.

I think I see where you are going here. I only have an anecdote to offer but since I started diving CCR 4 yrs ago all of my adjusted and tweaked RD has basically been tossed. I still do an average depth in my head. I still carry GUE/UTD standard gases. If everything poops out I could do an RD ascent like I used to do on OC.

Where it gets interesting is what happens side by side with an RD diver. My on CCR using 40/70 or 40/80 (depends on the dive) and them on OC using RD. We actually have fairly comparable total deco times. They end up about halfway through that time by 30ft. My deco doesn't even start until ~50ft (some of the deeper 1-2min buhlmann stops clear before getting to 50ft). At 30ft they are halfway done, have ~65+% of my deco time to go. They will be "done" after 10-20mins at 20ft. I still have an 12-18min 10ft stop overhead.

Essentially, if you do a deeper stop profile how much longer do you have to clear a buhlmann profile? For 20-25 min BTs in the 140 to 200ft range, quite a bit.
 
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