Why no redundancy in mainstream rec scuba?

[chrisch]

Folks get training. Then they go out into the world. They then do what they want and forget stuff that is not being used. ...

For sure. Over time people become complacent and just stop bothering about safety. I think everyone knows this and sees it in everyday life.

I just wonder why a DM in training posts up that rec divers are not safe? Really? I am beginning to think the DIR/GUE people are right. I wonder if Lorenziod doesn't have a point and we should look at agencies and what it is they actually teach. All these Divemasters around the world leading groups and none of them are picking up on this failure? No one taking the diver to one side and suggesting they need to concentrate a bit more on buddy skills?

Is it really so much more important to get the revenue than be concerned about the odd customer drowning? Or is the marketing stance you must dive as a group with a DM and not go off on your own as you are not skilled enough to dive without a DM?

I've never been on a DM guided dive in my life so forgive me if I am a bit shocked at this. What I am reading here does not match up to my experiences.

 

[DanielRJones]

For sure. Over time people become complacent and just stop bothering about safety. I think everyone knows this and sees it in everyday life.

I just wonder why a DM in training posts up that rec divers are not safe? Really? I am beginning to think the DIR/GUE people are right. I wonder if Lorenziod doesn't have a point and we should look at agencies and what it is they actually teach. All these Divemasters around the world leading groups and none of them are picking up on this failure? No one taking the diver to one side and suggesting they need to concentrate a bit more on buddy skills?

Is it really so much more important to get the revenue than be concerned about the odd customer drowning? Or is the marketing stance you must dive as a group with a DM and not go off on your own as you are not skilled enough to dive without a DM?

I've never been on a DM guided dive in my life so forgive me if I am a bit shocked at this. What I am reading here does not match up to my experiences.

I went on a dm guided dive when in Ibiza. Had an amazing brief about what there was to see and currents and depth and dive time. All he asked is you told him when you hit 100bar. We were not dragged around or held close. He done his dive and just asked that we stayed in viz range and enjoyed the dive. Luckily when after the first dive everyone was within 20 bar with lowest on 40 and highest in 60 so worked well

 

[Marie13]

I've never been on a DM guided dive before. Here on the Great Lakes, there are no such things.

 

[Storker]

I think normal recreational divers are not disciplined enough to reliably use ‘buddy’ as ‘alternate air’.

IOW, I'm not normal.

Yeah, already knew that...

 

[The Chairman]

Mask bucket. Never used one.

Indeed. Neither would I toss my mask on a boat.

 

[Neilwood]

I think the whole "bad buddy" thing comes down to normalisation of deviance. People (unless very focused on particular goals/rules such as pilots who follow rigid check-lists) have a tendency to veer slowly away from standards - this is the same in almost every pastime/career. Unless there is something to actively guide the person back to the standards (such as the team ideal in GUE/UTD which is a mindset), standards slip.

Because nothing goes wrong on most dives, people become used to that so the importance of proper buddy diving becomes less and less important to them - until the day they really need it.

 

[Germie]

I live in a cold water country, so I have seen several times regulators freeflowing and then causing an OOG. Maybe not a real OOG, but you have to close the valve (buddy has to do in most times as you cannot do yourself on a single tank), and if you don't have a dual outlet valve, you cannot use your own gas left in your tank. That is why there is now a European rule that for dives under 10 degrees C, or deeper than 30m you need a dual outlet valve, or EN250A (EN250:2014) marked first stages. The normal cold water regs with EN250 are officially not good enough anymore for the use of 2 people (main regulator and octopus, both breathing same time from 1 first stage). The EN250 means cold water regulator, so can be used with a dual outlet. Without that EN250A>10C it means not suitable in our water.
Here it is normal to have a dual outlet valve and 2 first stages.

On most dives I have a spare mask. Never used it myself, but have given it to some divers who jumped in and forgot their masks.

 

[diversteve]

Why no redundancy in mainstream rec scuba?

mine is named Dave - he goes everywhere I do.

 

[Storker]

I live in a cold water country, so I have seen several times regulators freeflowing

Huh. I, too, live in a cold water country and have yet to see a 1st stage freeflow (which IMO is the serious type). 2nd stage freeflows, on the surface, after the dive, are almost the rule and not the exception when the water is 4C and the air below freezing, though...

I suspect that it's because you can't buy a reg set that isn't suitable for cold water at any reputable LDS up here

 

[Hoag]

I must be missing something. Being a good buddy is not particularly difficult. The big thing is effective communication.

I was recently on a LOB and although I was traveling with a group, I was the "odd man out" so to speak and I got paired up with an "insta-buddy" for the week. We had never met let alone dived together. Before the 1st dive, we got together and reviewed hand signals (especially for pressure) and a few other basics. She was diving air and I was on Nitrox so we each had different limitations based on the gas we were breathing. After the 1st dive, we got together again and debriefed. "What did I do that was 'dumb dangerous or different' than what you were expecting?" or "What did I do that you liked and you want to see me continue?". Based on some honest discussions before and after the first couple dives, we fell into a rhythm pretty quickly and we became very good buddies who could communicate effectively underwater and we always knew exactly where the other was.

By the end of the week, the crew on the boat had commented that they had never seen "insta-buddies" grow into such an effective buddy pair so quickly and they said it was because they had never seen them take a couple minutes after the 1st couple of dives to debrief the dive.

It really isn't hard. You just have to communicate. (Both talk and listen.)

As a side note: The one concession I made was that I did not take my camera with me on the first couple dives.