Why no redundancy in mainstream rec scuba?

[tursiops]

Mask bucket. Never used one. Why would I want one? But then I have never rented a mask even back in my snorkeling days. Now a camera bucket for rinsing a camera I understand.

A mask bucket has really nothing to do with whether a mask is rented or not. Rather, it is thought to be a place to store your mask between dives so it doesn't get lost overboard or stepped on, and it is a place to rinse off whatever cleaner you have used. Both of those are val;id reasons for a bucket full of water to put your mask in. The problem mentioned earlier is that other people's snot (and worse) goes on your mask. Ewwww at least, sickness at worst.

 

[Steve_C]

Top of tank with or without the reg on it has always worked good for me.

 

[boulderjohn]

The phrase "rule of thirds" has two meanings in two different contexts, and it is possible some people are confusing the two.

One is commonly used in cave diving--use 1/3 of your gas (whatever it is) for entryand 1/3 for exit, leaving (in theory) a third for any problems that may arise. This is, of course, a broad concept that needs to be tweaked for circumstances.

Another definition is used by several tech agencies to determine gas reserves. In this case, divers calculate what they expect to need for each of their gases during the dive, then add a reserve that should cover problems. That reserve would be a third of the total. It is calculated by first determining how much gas is needed (say 100 CF) then adding half that to the total (150 cubic feet) to calculate the planned gas reserve. The diver starting with 150 cubic feet should end the dive with 50 cubic feet (1/3) if everything goes precisely according to plan.

 

[MichaelMc]

A while ago I wondered what I might prefer if my young nephews became new divers. I would rather they were self sufficient and trained to stay with their buddy for the extra brain and hands. Buddy as bonus help, not I might die down here if I lose them. I think I would rather unbalanced regs on a baby (30s or 40s) twin set with progressive equalization so they had redundancy but no need for fast valve drills. Fewer issues if they are separated; lots of practice on low air. But twin sets cost extra, so I think adoption of that would be limited.

If you sent your young nephews, with 10-20 dives, out into the dive world, *without a regular buddy*, how would you want them equipped/trained? The dive maturity of many divers might be at the level of moderately responsible teenagers. How can we set it up so they are safer?

I think normal recreational divers are not disciplined enough to reliably use ‘buddy’ as ‘alternate air’. The disciple ingrained into GUE teams, from a trainee pool with different attitudes, seems to make this point by way of contrast. Expecting that team from instabuddies is a big stretch.

Divers can alway figure out that *usually* you do not need the buddy. It’s the usually that bites them and causes issues. And as Grateful Diver says, being good buddies is hard work. It is bad that most may not want the work.

 

[lowviz]

A while ago I wondered what I might prefer if my young nephews became new divers. I would rather they were self sufficient and trained to stay with their buddy for the extra brain and hands. ...//...

Ideal situation.

...//... Divers can alway figure out that *usually* you do not need the buddy. It’s the usually that bites them and causes issues. And as Grateful Diver says, being good buddies is hard work. It is bad that most may not want the work.

It is even worse that rank novices are routinely paired and blessed as being safer. The bottom line in 'dunk and cert' is that the buddy system is totally bogus. The Dive Shop/Dive Op/DM/Instructor has an out.

I've been there from the very start. I looked at who was my backup and got the cold chills. From day one, I was seared solo.

Go on a solo dive in the middle of the night with nobody around. No better way to self-assess your own skills. No other skills matter. Nobody has your back or ever did. Fantasy.

 

[gcarter]

When taking new divers into the St. Lawrence for drift dives on the old lock system, it is not unusual to have to share air with them diving their AL80s and being overwhelmed with the current on their first exposure. I have had the mouthpiece pulled off of my second by a diver who had no idea how to do a proper air share. So I have taken to explaining to any new diver / buddy in my care when doing such dives how this needs to work, and have passed this on to the instructors I know. Even so simple an instruction as for the sharing diver to hold the tank valve of the donating diver to maintain contact and distance is a foreign concept to many. Instructors need to do better.

For the record, these are low risk dives, generally max 40 FFW with the shore a short swim away. But still.

 

[lowviz]

So totally.

But still...

 

[lowviz]

OK then!!! Wow. I respect both of the recent combatants.

All instructors/dive shops/dive Ops/DM's/dive professionals step to this side of the chalk line on the floor.

Just divers on the other side...

 

[chrisch]

...
I think normal recreational divers are not disciplined enough to reliably use ‘buddy’ as ‘alternate air’.

If that is true then the whole scuba industry is worthless and should be shut down with immediate effect. Every person that claims to have "trained" divers should be stripped of the right to do such a bad job and sent for retraining themselves.

How can we tolerate such failure? Maybe the government should step in and licence scuba diving and make you take a test, like a driving test and force you to do periodic retests. Yeah. That would work.

 

[Steve_C]

If that is true then the whole scuba industry is worthless and should be shut down with immediate effect. Every person that claims to have "trained" divers should be stripped of the right to do such a bad job and sent for retraining themselves.

How can we tolerate such failure? Maybe the government should step in and licence scuba diving and make you take a test, like a driving test and force you to do periodic retests. Yeah. That would work.

Folks get training. Then they go out into the world. They then do what they want and forget stuff that is not being used. Take your example of driving. I am sure that they are safe during their test, and did not text while they drive and maybe even for a few weeks after training but you only need to drive a bit to realize that there are a LOT of drivers disobeying all sort of safety rules and safe procedures. Most driving accidents are as much of an accident as accidentally getting pregnant. Action leads to inevitable reaction. As I told a young lady who told me she accidentally got pregnant. What would you do if you wanted to get pregnant? What did you do? Not really an accident. Repeat driving tests do no reinforce safety. They just reinforce knowing what 70% of the signs mean.

Retests would have zero impact on use of the buddy system.