Why no redundancy in mainstream rec scuba?

[Akimbo]

I believe Navy divers did not use the buddy system until the UDT swimmers, rebreathers, and then later SCUBA. Hardhats, surface supplied, do not lend themselves to buddy diving. @Akimbo could chime in for a clearer picture.

Officially, the buddy system is pretty strictly adhered to by non-combatant Navy Divers when untethered. However, the use of any form of SCUBA is considered the least safe method available to working divers... for good reason. Would anyone take a buddy in Scuba over a US Navy or commercial qualified diving supervisor:

• In constant verbal communications with the diver
• Monitoring most of the diver's field of view on live CCTV
  
• Has at least two backup gas systems available in addition to the diver's bailout
• Can direct your tenders to pull you to the surface at will
• Has a fully-dressed (less the hat) standby diver that can follow your hose for a rescue

The Navy will put two surface-supplied divers in the water at the same time when the job calls for it, but the work rarely justifies it. I say officially because the reality I observed is that Navy divers who are Scuba diving for recreation (hunting bugs, abs, etc) are pretty-much same ocean buddies. Their redundancy is the surface, they are skilled at free ascents, and are very panic resistant. This is not to imply that Navy and commercial divers are some kind of natural-born diving gods. Any motivated and physically fit individual with reasonable mechanical skills can do the job. The difference is training and daily work experience.

US Navy Training Schedule (a training day is roughly 8 hours):
Scuba, 25 training days
Second Class Diver, 89 training days
First Class Diver, 65 training days

 

[TMHeimer]

I boat dive in SoCal, and so far, they don't care if I dive solo.

So far I haven't had an issue with an instabuddy, however I haven't had many. The ones I've met enjoy diving and it's a matter of planning the dive to meet as many of our individual objectives as we can.

I usually have a chat with an instabuddy about buddy procedures, ending with lost buddy procedure. If I'm buddy diving, I take it seriously, and no one wants the recall and come up to a boat searching for their body.


Bob

Again I agree. Also agree with the other Bob (Grateful) in that HOW to be a good buddy (other than entering & exiting) is not covered much at all in OW--have seen this as an assistant. Perhaps that's another topic to be discussed. Still doesn't cover the fact that even with thorough discussion with an instabuddy you can't be assured they are going to be a good decent buddy you could depend on --until you're in the water. Thus I do like the redundancy idea in that circumstance. I won't belabour that.

 

[Bob DBF]

Granted this an issue with some instructors who do not emphasize the buddy system. That doesn't mean it is an agency caused issue. Both NAUI and PADI state the end goal is a student should be able to independently (without supervision) plan and conduct a dive. Granted, they don't add "buddy" at the end of the statement.

Since NAUI is not a member of the RSTC, they may have an excuse. My experience was that I, or anyone in the class, would not receive certification if I did not know and practice proper buddy diving behavior in that NAUI/PADI class some time in the past.

PADI should adhere to the RSTC OW standard, a portion quoted below.

A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

Lets face it, the majority of divers follow a DM around some tropical dive site, and the instructors that want to cut corners use that to justify short changing their students because the students will never know how poorly they were trained until they have to dive on their own, which may never happen.


Bob

 

[northernone]

Officially, the buddy system is pretty strictly adhered to by non-combatant Navy Divers when untethered. However, the use of any form of SCUBA is considered the least safe method available to working divers... for good reason. Would anyone take a buddy in Scuba over a diving US Navy or commercial qualified diving supervisor:

• In constant verbal communications with the diver
• Monitoring most of the diver's field of view on live CCTV
  
• Has at least two backup gas systems available in addition to the diver's bailout
• Can direct your tenders to pull you to the surface at will
• Has a fully-dressed (less the hat) standby diver that can follow your hose for a rescue

The Navy will put two surface-supplied divers in the water at the same time when the job calls for it, but the work rarely justifies it. I say officially because the reality I observed is that Navy divers that are Scuba diving for recreation (hunting bugs, abs, etc) are pretty-much same ocean buddies. Their redundancy is the surface, they are skilled at free ascents, and are very panic resistant. This is not to imply that Navy and commercial divers some kind of natural-born diving gods. Any motivated and physically fit individual with reasonable mechanical skills can do the job. The difference is training and daily work experience.

US Navy Training Schedule (a training day is roughly 8 hours):
Scuba, 25 training days
Second Class Diver, 89 training days
First Class Diver, 65 training days

Excellent perspective on this discussion, per usual.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Not necessarily. This statement completely ignores the psychology of people. An instructor can pound it into a student's head that he/she is to dive with a buddy and stay with that person, but it doesn't mean that it is going to happen after they are certified. Diving Dubai has pointed this out.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I just don't understand what goes on in the heads of most divers. When I'm taught to do something, it's what I do. I am a rule follower. I'm probably not normal.

 

[boulderjohn]

Lets face it, the majority of divers follow a DM around some tropical dive site, and the instructors that want to cut corners use that to justify short changing their students because the students will never know how poorly they were trained until they have to dive on their own, which may never happen.

I have said many times that when I was certified, many standards were skipped. I didn't know that until later. Earlier in the thread I gave examples of it happening in the 1960s. It has always been happening.

I was a high school teacher for a quarter century. I am sure at least half of my colleagues ignored the actual curriculum and taught whatever they felt like, often with the administration fully aware of it. A group of us were sitting in the English office sharing lunch once, and one of the teachers blithely announced that she loved teaching Candide so much that she taught it in every literature class she taught--Major World Writers, Major American Writers, Major British Writers, Short Story--didn't matter. The department chair was part of the conversation.

When I was in English graduate school, I took a 600-level course called Donne and Jonson. We did one week of really obscure works by Donne. We did one week of really obscure works by Jonson. The rest of the semester was devoted to super unknown writers who were active between 1592 and 1603, when it abruptly ended because of church intervention. The next semester the same professor offered a 500 level course called the 17th century--exact same curriculum. It covered pretty much unknown writers for the last 8 years of the 16th century--almost none were actually in the 17th century. The course missed you might have heard of.

That is what happens throughout the world of education. It has been like that since Socrates and Plato taught pretty much whatever they felt like.

 

[shurite7]

Lets face it, the majority of divers follow a DM around some tropical dive site, and the instructors that want to cut corners use that to justify short changing their students because the students will never know how poorly they were trained until they have to dive on their own, which may never happen.
Bob

Sadly, this is true. Many divers simply just want to flop around in the water and have their hands held. I've also met a couple of instructors who only teach to the minimum standards (they told me this when I questioned them) because their students will simply follow a guide, rather than cultivate divers who can plan and execute a dive, let alone adhere to a buddy system. Sigh...

 

[HeliMech]

how do you apply the "rule of thirds" to recreational diving?
Rock Bottom is much more appropriate for open water diving than the rule of thirds which is for penetration dives....

Really? It's impossible to apply it to a rec dive? Seems easy enough to me...but I'm new.

 

[The Chairman]

It's impossible to apply it to a rec dive?

He said it wasn't appropriate, not impossible. I use halves, less my ascent pressure which is 10psi/ft, with 600 being the absolute minimum. If I'm diving a 3500 psi tank, and the deepest will be 80ft, my ascent pressure will be 800psi. 3500-[(3500-800)/2]=2150 psi is my "turn pressure". If I'm doing a 40ft dive, 3500-[(3500-600)/2]=2050psi.

 

[Steve_C]

tossed it in the mask bucket in the corner,

Mask bucket. Never used one. Why would I want one? But then I have never rented a mask even back in my snorkeling days. Now a camera bucket for rinsing a camera I understand.