Why no redundancy in mainstream rec scuba?

[DanielRJones]

@chrisch
Not gonna stop diving, cause I love it so much

As for solo diving, I still haven't tried it because
1. I'm still relatively new, and don't have much confidence in going full solo.
2. Custom for dive shops and guides here would be to have divers pair up, especially if they are newer divers
3. The girlfriend is terrified by the mere thought that I would be diving by myself

For my mentality, it's more of trying my best to stay with the buddy, so that I would be able to assist if needed. However, with redundant measures, I would still be able to save myself in the worst case scenario (e.g. getting tangled when low on air without buddy in sight)

For my situation, I'm thinking the best solution would be to just find a permanent buddy that I can trust and rely upon. Failing that however, I would love the reassurance of the knowledge that I can at the very least take care of myself if the worst were to happen.

Therefore, I spent quite a lot of time reading and learning about optimal equipment configuration, safer practices, concepts like rock bottom calculations, and also some extra knowledge on deco procedures, diving physiology, mechanisms of diving equipment etc, in order to improve on my diving and minimise risk at the same time.
Gonna take a self reliant diver course in the near future as well.

So far, the journey has been fun, even with occasional bad experiences with my buddies.

I have

My PADI training was a while ago, but from what I recall the buddy system was given lip service. We practiced sharing air once or twice. The instructor never really hammered it into us. We never had to do a checkout dive where we had to act as a team. I hear the term "buddy team" used now and then, but the "team" part seems to get lost. True buddy diving has been given a new name by agencies that teach it, such as GUE and UTD: "team" diving.

I was the opposite. I learnt with padi and there was a massive push on buddy checks and buddy diving but that is the instructor. Alot of UK diving is in bad viz so being more than a few meter apart could mean no more buddy. When did ing with the wife we are normally within touching distance or if on holidays and diving with 50+m viz we would part about 10m if there was something she wanted to go and see that didn't bother me

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
My point is, people are people and they are going to do what they want. . . .

People do what they want, i.e., decide that the buddy system is not important, because from the beginning of their training they got the impression that they were free to do what they want. Later, on a trip, the divers feel like they can ignore the request of the guide who "covered buddy procedures thoroughly."

GUE and UTD only look like the oddballs--like the student needs to be especially motivated--because people have become accustomed to something else. If every diver had from the beginning been taught buddy procedures as they are taught by those agencies, they wouldn't think anything of it--as far as they would know, ignoring one's "buddy" is not an option that anyone seriously considers. Instead, soon after getting their OW cert divers observe other divers ignoring the buddy system and conclude that in the real world it's okay.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

From that other recent thread on pony bottles, I got the impression that the fear of equipment failure is the major impetus for seemingly so many divers carrying a pony these days. If I recall, things like a LP hose rupture were mentioned. Rare, for sure, but it was mentioned that it has happened. (Reg freezing, too, but that wouldn't apply to diving in tropical or temperature waters.)

Personally, I wish the agencies would just get serious about instilling the buddy system in new divers. Make being a good buddy and taking it seriously part of the course requirements. If you don't have each other's back on the checkout dive, you don't pass. If the vast majority of divers were to strictly adhere to the buddy system, this perceived need to lug along a pony bottle on every dive would vanish, and we could all get back to enjoying the freedom of recreational diving as we envisioned it.

... some of us envision carrying a pony as a symbol of freedom ... particularly when diving with people we're not familiar with.

Just a couple days ago I hosted a dive at a dive site that's considered advanced, due primarily to prevailing currents and chronically poor visibility. As the dive leader I chose to buddy up with the least experienced diver ... he told me he had about 70 dives, and we had never met before this particular dive. Due to windy conditions and the subsequent waves I decided to leave my pony in the car ... the less gear you have the easier to get in, and particularly out, when the waves are kicking your butt. And after all, I had a buddy so I shouldn't need it. As we descended I realized we'd gotten in a bit early ... current was moving pretty good, and would require us to pay attention to each other in the 10-12 foot vis we had or separation would be a likely result. And for the most part we did a reasonable job of staying together. But at one point I looked up shortly after taking a picture, expecting my dive buddy to be just to my right, and he wasn't there. Shining my light around I caught a vague glimpse of a reflection off of his fins (thankfully they had some white stripes on them or I'd not have seen them), as my buddy was kicking furiously away from me. It took me several minutes to catch up with him ... and during that time I found myself wishing I had my pony bottle with me, as I was behind him and if I lost access to my air at that point I would probably have drowned before I could make an emergency ascent.

He later told me that he saw a dive light heading off in that direction and assumed it was me. Turned out to be a different dive team.

From here and on, I'll take the pony ... it's a far more reliable backup source, since it's unlikely in the extreme to swim away from me while I'm focused on taking a picture.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually they do; at least NAUI and PADI. There is nothing to enforce people to adhere to the buddy system. After all, people are people and they are going to do what they want, including not paying attention to a buddy.

Sorry ... NAUI and PADI do a fine job of instilling in new divers that they should dive with a buddy. They do a piss-poor job of teaching people how to do it. In fact, the common "lead/follow" technique used to train divers how to dive together is more a disincentive for good buddy diving than it is useful ... unless the objective is to dive as a group following a guide.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Bob, I'm not questioning the appropriateness of a pony for PNW diving. If one is going to dive in poor vis, high current, with people of unknown buddy skills, etc., then by all means equip yourself. But the major agencies and the dive culture in general taking the buddy system more seriously would go a long way toward reassuring people that they don't need a pony bottle on all those 60-100' tropical reef dives that probably constitute the vast majority of rec diving.

 

[Diving Dubai]

@Lorenzoid. I'm sorry but you are speaking from a position of ignorance, and a bias from your kool aid fueled relatively recent training.

The Agencies DO teach buddy practices and you do instil (as far as possible while students are under your tuition) all the proper techniques and best practices.

Unfortunately human nature takes hold, people certify and a great many deem themselves not needing to bother with that rubbish anymore. Before anyone protests, think back to when you passed your driving test, the best practices you were taught and the bad practices you now display.

People can (as instructors or seasoned divers) lead by example and be role models for newer divers. Invariable this doesn't happen and the newer divers look to their peers and copy them.

So perhaps rather than continually blame the agencies, one should look at divers and their attitudes

 

[Diving Dubai]

Going back to the OP. The buddy system works fine if practiced. If a buddy team breaks down, both parties are to blame. For the average rec dive, a pony isn't' a necessity, people (for the most part) carry them a) so they don't have to communicate with their buddy to ensure the dive objectives are agreed upon, b) because they look cool or "tech"

Before I get accused of hypocrisy, yes I do carry a pony on most dives. If I'm guiding, then I sling an 80 for gas guzzlers. If I'm fun diving, again for the most part I sling one because I'm likely to be in current, where being instantly accessible to my buddy is impracticable. It's easier to pop in the pony reg, sorting the problem and then get to my buddy (they will be close, but not close enough for OOA). Likewise if I'm on my DPV in open water, you are normally too far from your buddy for immediate OOA protocols.

Carryign a Pony does't negate the buddy principles and suddenly make you a solo diver. In my mind it just allows you (in OOA) to gain immediate access to breathable gas and then as a buddy team follow established protocols

 

[boulderjohn]

My PADI training was a while ago, but from what I recall the buddy system was given lip service. .

Sorry ... NAUI and PADI do a fine job of instilling in new divers that they should dive with a buddy. They do a piss-poor job of teaching people how to do it

PADI revised their OW course standards a couple of years ago, and they put much greater emphasis on practicing the buddy system.

• There are a number of occasions in the pool sessions where students are just supposed to swim about in buddy teams. At random times, one buddy is supposed to ask the other to signal the remaining air supply, and the response is supposed to be given with reasonable accuracy without looking at the gauge. The buddy is supposed to have checked his or her air recently enough to make a good guess.
• At the end of the pool sessions, students are supposed to plan and execute a minidive as a buddy team. During that dive, the instructor is supposed to surprise them with problems to solve as a team, such as OOA or a loose cylinder band.
• The 4th OW dive no longer has any instructor-led skills--all of those are completed during the first three dives. for the 4th dive, the students are to plan and execute the dive in buddy teams while the instructor observes, intervening only when it is necessary.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, I'm not questioning the appropriateness of a pony for PNW diving. If one is going to dive in poor vis, high current, with people of unknown buddy skills, etc., then by all means equip yourself. But the major agencies and the dive culture in general taking the buddy system more seriously would go a long way toward reassuring people that they don't need a pony bottle on all those 60-100' tropical reef dives that probably constitute the vast majority of rec diving.

It isn't a question of taking the buddy system more seriously ... I believe the agencies (ALL of them) do just exactly that. What they are short on is teaching people HOW to be a buddy. It's currently limited to teaching them to enter and exit the water together, swim around in the general vicinity of each other, and provide an alternate second stage if needed.

There's more to it than that. It begins with the mental approach of it being OUR dive rather than MY dive. It continues through the dive plan, to techniques for diving together that include communication (turning your head and looking at each other from time to time), predictable behavior (where do I expect my buddy to be, and where do they expect me to be), more communication (if you feel like veering off course to check out something, let your buddy know first), to mutually agreed upon habits (spacing and position while swimming), and what to do if something unexpected happens.

As for training, how about some exercises during the in-water part of the class that teach people the importance of positioning, spacing, and communication? I did it with my mid-water navigation dive ... where the two dive buddies have to work together to achieve an objective. In this case they're swimming patterns. One diver gets the compass, the other monitors depth and time on their dive computer. They can only complete the course if they swim in proximity to each other, maintain the same speed and distance, and communicate. The point of the exercise isn't navigation ... we've already covered that on a different dive. The point is learning WHY there is more to being a dive buddy than just swimming around together ... and you can't complete the exercise without showing good buddy skills. Afterward, I don't have to explain to them why it's important ... they figured it out during the course of the exercise. That's the difference between knowing something and understanding why it matters, and once you achieve the latter nobody has to explain it to you anymore.

It is, by the way, WHY both GUE and UTD are so successful at training good dive buddies ... because their whole program is predicated on the premise that it all begins with an approach that requires good buddy skills. Everything else is built around that.

The other agencies all tell you ... but they are lacking in terms of teaching you how, and why it matters. They leave it up to the instructor to do that, and most really don't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lorenzoid]

@Lorenzoid. I'm sorry but you are speaking from a position of ignorance, and a bias from your kool aid fueled relatively recent training.

The Agencies DO teach buddy practices and you do instil (as far as possible while students are under your tuition) all the proper techniques and best practices.

I regret I have only two data points to speak from, both of which are (thank you for the intentional insult there) "relatively recent": my PADI OW training and my GUE Fundies training. In PADI OW, we were simply told to "always dive with a buddy." But in my class, we were not taught in buddy pairs--we were taught everything as a group. We were not taught specific things that a buddy is to do and when to do them. Sure, each student practiced sharing air with another student, but that was all. On the checkout dives, we were more or less back to diving as a group.

The only "kool aid" that is relevant here is the buddy system. Let's leave out everything else that the agencies may or may not teach. To the extent we're focusing only on the buddy system, that's not kool aid, that's what my PADI instructor said he was teaching me. At its core, both PADI and GUE are simply teaching the buddy system. However, nothing we did in the OW course suggested to me that my instructor considered my buddy skills just as important as the other stuff he taught us.

Obviously my experience with my instructor in my OW class should not be interpreted as PADI's fault; it was just what I experienced, from my instructor. You may be better at instilling the buddy system in your students. Kudos if that is the case.

Unfortunately human nature takes hold, people certify and a great many deem themselves not needing to bother with that rubbish anymore. Before anyone protests, think back to when you passed your driving test, the best practices you were taught and the bad practices you now display.

Why is "human nature" a reasonable excuse in diving but not in some other team-oriented endeavors? As I posited above, maybe it's because we don't really teach that diving is a team sport from the very beginning? Rather, we teach it as an individual sport with some additional human element to it that we call the buddy system. Driving is a poor example, because I still keep in mind the things I was taught in my driving class almost 40 years ago and tend to drive conservatively. I don't want to take a road trip with people who drive as though they "deem themselves not needing to bother with that rubbish anymore," and I don't want to go diving with someone who has that kind of attitude either.

People can (as instructors or seasoned divers) lead by example and be role models for newer divers. Invariable this doesn't happen and the newer divers look to their peers and copy them.

So perhaps rather than continually blame the agencies, one should look at divers and their attitudes

Yes, I said that, too. I put part of the blame on the instruction and part on the "culture" among divers. Did you miss that part of what I said? I'll grant you that the culture may play an even greater role than the instruction. I think the culture could have a huge positive effect. For instance, I think part of the reason it's uncommon for even casual rec divers to blow off analyzing Nitrox tanks is that newer divers see how seriously the more experienced divers take it. It is not one of those things that's taught in class and then largely forgotten in the "real world." The buddy system should be taken as seriously, but it often isn't. I think it's a self-reinforcing cycle, where even experienced divers don't always take the buddy system as seriously as they should because they just assume they can't influence the ways of newer divers. Your statement about "human nature" is case in point.

Edit: I am glad to hear per John's post that PADI revised its standards a few years ago to emphasize the buddy system. I hope this is now making its way into becoming ingrained in the dive culture.