C Cards Requirement or Recommendation?

[TMHeimer]

Yeah, what CT-Rich said. I also find the wording for a PADI OW card interesting. Something like "certified to a recommended depth of 60' in conditions as good or better than which you were trained". Boy, is that ever open to interpretation. You get more experience (without AOW), and gradually increase your depth to 100', and now you can go in faster currents or bigger waves than conditions in which you were trained. Or, you can go right to 80-100' after OW if you're with a dive pro (that's what you're doing anyway when you take AOW). I agree that if I were the dive op owner I'd require AOW for anything below 60'--it would be my livelihood at stake.

 

[AdivingBel]

It's so conditions/locale driven. In a cold water, lower viz situation an AOW below 60' policy might work. If you publish that policy upfront, as an op should, in a warm water, high viz location, you might have a hard time staying business. For example Bloody Bay Wall is 60 ft to the top of the reef with a drop over the wall and thousands of OW divers dive it every year.

 

[admikar]

As someone said it before, in Croatia, you will not get on a boat without a card. Every dive op I went with will take a hold on your card even for a shore dive, and keep it in their dive log until you finish. As for publishing required cert, some do, some don't. Even some clubs won't take their members to certain dives without AOW, regardless of experience.
So, that's the main reason me getting my Nitrox card, and going for CMAS** as soon as I fulfill minimums.

 

[Centrals]

I have dived in many countries all over Asia and cannot remember the last time that C-card was NOT required.
How difficult it is to carry one in your wallet? It is same size as a credit card, isn't it?

 

[Bob DBF]

Yeah, what CT-Rich said. I also find the wording for a PADI OW card interesting. Something like "certified to a recommended depth of 60' in conditions as good or better than which you were trained". Boy, is that ever open to interpretation. You get more experience (without AOW), and gradually increase your depth to 100', and now you can go in faster currents or bigger waves than conditions in which you were trained. Or, you can go right to 80-100' after OW if you're with a dive pro (that's what you're doing anyway when you take AOW). I agree that if I were the dive op owner I'd require AOW for anything below 60'--it would be my livelihood at stake.

The problem is basically that the OW card certifys the holder to dive recreational NDL, but many instructors/agencies do not train to that standard yet still give out the card. It is interesting that after training the diver at 30' in benign conditions, the then say they have a recommended depth of 60' in similar conditions, when student is not trained to judge conditions.

No where in the RSTC guidelines that many Agencies agree to train by, there is no caveat of "certified to a recommended depth of 60' in conditions as good or better than which you were trained" when certifying an OW diver.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of new divers immediately diving to recreational limits in poor conditions, but training by platitudes, saying you need the next course, then handing out a card that certifies that you need no other courses, gives the impression to some that OW is a joke, and by extension that all training is a joke and therefore not needed. Not saying that one needs to go back to the Old School training, but the the thoroughness of the training and time with a good instructor can insure that the proper decisions are made when the new OW diver faces any conditions, not just the ones he was trained in.



Bob
-------------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[hroark2112]

Are you saying we should be taking students to 130' as part of OW? And it's the instructors fault if we don't do it?

 

[CT-Rich]

I think with the exception of Nitrogen narcosis (not a huge issue in this example), the NDL, lower light, thermocline and the distance to the great tank in the sky, diving at say, 20 fsw in many cases is more demanding of skills demanding than a dive at 80 fsw. At 20fsw buoyancy changes are much greater with relatively tiny changes in depth. You are much more subject to the wave action also. A couple of feet of accidently holding your breath close to the surface is much more likely to result in an embolism. Really at depths in the 60-90 fsw range you are going to have a much greater margin for error on a skills level that at 30 fsw. Before everyone gets all over my case I am going to clarify that I am talking about a dive with a bottom (like a reef, wreck or sandy bottom) and decent visibility and moderate conditions....

 

[Steve_C]

I think with the exception of Nitrogen narcosis (not a huge issue in this example), the NDL, lower light, thermocline

and significantly faster air consumption

Not disagreeing about buoyancy but a diver can get into deeper trouble more quickly on a deeper diver. Narcosis and air consumption are not minor details.

 

[Bob DBF]

Are you saying we should be taking students to 130' as part of OW? And it's the instructors fault if we don't do it?

Not exactly.

The most important resource for a diver is his judgement. Skills are necessary, but knowing how good you actually are, your personal limitations, and the discipline to call the dive, or not dive, are the "skills" that will save your a**.

I don't see the time in the new online book work, local pool work, and referral to a vacation destination for an instructor to know the new diver and instill these important values in him.



Bob

 

[TMHeimer]

All good points in recent posts. I know it's an old comparison, but you can get your driver's license at age 16 (15 for OW) on city/town streets and can immediately drive on the interstates at 85 (well, maybe 74 if you don't want a ticket in a 65 zone--Pub topic)). Logic comes in--maybe it's a good idea to drive on some faster country roads before I-95, or have an adult with you (a DM for diving?) when you tackle the interstate.