Some days are harder than others

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stuartv

Seeking the Light
ScubaBoard Supporter
Scuba Instructor
Messages
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Location
Lexington, SC
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I had another weekend of tech training (AN+DP) this past weekend up at Hyde's Quarry, in MD. It was cold and we were diving dry. Me, with double (back mount) HP120s and an AL40 slung on the left. Saturday was okay, but not great. The previous time out (which was my first time diving doubles and dry at the same time), I had learned that I could not reach my valves in my drysuit. So, for this time, I lowered the bands 1.5" to try and make them easier to reach. On Sat, I learned that I still could not reach them, but now they seemed too high. Other than not being able to complete a valve drill, the 2 dives on Sat went okay. My buoyancy was far from perfect, but it wasn't terrible. I have 2 classmates and our instructor said we did pretty well on buddy skills and team diving. And we did well on getting in a star (triangle?) formation and staying level and together as we deployed SMBs and did a staged ascent and gas switch (still using air for everything, at this point) on both dives. His biggest criticism of me on Saturday (aside from needing to get my reach to my valves sorted out) was that sometimes during a task my legs would droop and I would get out of trim by an unacceptable amount. Not vertical, but probably somewhere around 30-ish to maybe even 45 degrees.

Sunday was a different story, though. I adjusted my bands back up 3/4", to see if I could split the difference on being able to reach my valves. I could barely reach them. But, the effort it took for the right post and isolator was so much that my left hand was tired and cramping up (even though it wasn't doing much of anything most of the time) before I could complete the left side shutdown. And on top of that, the worst part was that for whatever reason, my buoyancy control was completely out the window. Maybe it was from being tired. I don't know. I was tired anyway, and then the attempted valve drill at the start of Sunday's first dive got me more tired. My buoyancy was okay during the (failed) valve drill. But after that, it was like I was the worst OW student ever. Every time I got tasked with anything, I would just drop like a rock. Often, 10 feet. Even just doing a swim it seemed like as soon as I got myself adjusted, I would start to float up. Then I would let some air out of my BC and then start to drop like a rock. I felt like a complete basket case for the whole first dive. And I was diving exactly the same everything as the day before.

During the debrief, it was noted that I was a complete basket case for buoyancy and my instructor asked how much weight I was carrying. I told him I had my 6 # SS BP and the 8# bolt-on weight plates, for 14 #, total. He and the AI seemed very surprised and suggested that I probably did not need any of the 8# weight plates at all. I was somewhat confident that I did. But, I was so bad in the water on dive 1 that I decided to try the next dive with those plates removed.

I started the dive with roughly half full tanks for dive 2 (on Sun). I was way too light. I was able to get down, but it was a bit difficult to get started down. Then, midway through the dive, we were following a line and gradually ascended to about 15'. I started to float up from there (not on purpose). So I attempted to dump some air from my BC, using the corrugated hose, and no air came out. Meanwhile, of course, I'm accelerating towards the surface. I finally flipped myself completely vertical and some more air came out of my BC then and I was able to stop my ascent and then fight my way back down.

Also, during the whole dive, if I stopped finning for even a second, I would start rotating immediately into a head down position. I understand this to be a classic symptom of being underweighted. And, just to be clear, for this dive, I had on minimally fluffy undergarments - only a couple of layers of Lavacore, in fact. And I was only putting just enough air in my drysuit to make the squeeze be not painful. Because of the trim problem, every time I kicked, the first part of the kick stroke was spent just kicking my head end back up to horizontal and then the last part of the kick stroke would propel me forward a little bit.

At the end of the dive, we were at 20-something feet with a plan of deploying SMBs, ascending to 20', doing a gas switch, and then getting out. I was also attempting to inflate my SMB using my 2nd stage, for the first time. Normally, I've been inflating it by catching exhaust from 2nd stage instead. As soon as I started trying to do that, I started to float up and then that turned into another runaway ascent and I ended up at the surface.

The uncontrolled ascents weren't that big of a safety concern, in the circumstances. That quarry is only 55' at the bottom and we were mostly swimming around between 20 and 30 feet during that dive. I didn't hold my breath and I didn't shoot up and out of the water. I wasn't worried about getting bent from it. It was just very frustrating.

All said and done, I calculate that double HP120s at half full will become roughly 6.5# more buoyant to the positive when they are at 500 psi. This leads me to think that putting that 8 # back on is probably just about exactly the right weighting for the configuration I was diving. And, like I said, my buoyancy seemed okay on Saturday. I think I might need to experiment with moving the weight around a little bit to get my trim better, but the amount of weight seemed okay.

Anyway... All in all, a very humbling day.

Thanks for letting me vent. :depressed:
 
DSS bolt on weight plates are not intended for use with doubles.

https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?product=7

"8.1 Lbs (per pair) Bolt on Weight Plates, Medium SS For single tank use only. Fits *ONLY* Medium Stainless Steel Deep Sea Supply back plates. Will NOT fit other brands of Back Plates.

8.1 lbs per pair Bolt on Weight Plates, Medium SS, back plates with hardware

FOR SINGLE TANK USE ONLY"


If you actually need to add ballast to your doubles rig there are simpler, easier to adjust, and cheaper ways to do so.

Tobin
 
I'll likely regret joining this.....


hp 120's and an SS plate, puts me "overweighted"...... CF200 DS, & heavy quilted Bare CF200 insulation. Incidentals (lights, reels, etc. just add more "sink")...

If you are having troubles in trim and venting, is your wing too wide for the 7.25" doubles and the air is sticking in the taco?
 
so bolt on weights aside, with HP120's and a SS plate you shouldn't need any extra ballast.... That would be quite surprising if you really did. Either too much air in the suit, still some residual air in the wing, or you're breathing too much. To follow up with Bob
drysuit with HP100's and a Kydex plate puts me overweight...

going head down has little do to with not enough lead, but a lot to do with moving the tanks up. When you slide them up you are increasing the moment arm quite a bit and doubles are already going to push you head down. You need to slide the bottles back to where they are supposed to be, top of the band right at the crown, don't move them. You have a DSS plate, so you have to spots that you can put the bolts, play with those first, don't muck with the bands.
What wing are you using? If you have a wing that biases lift to the bottom, you need to put the wing as high up on the bands as you can
How loose are your shoulder straps?
How tight is your crotch strap?
It is not uncommon to have restricted movement if the straps are too tight. The quick down and dirty check is to be able to reach them when sitting on the surface. If you can, then you can reach them underwater. You can double check by sitting the tanks on the picnic table with you fully strapped in and see if you can reach them. Start by adjusting your straps first, to get them right. Something has to be wrong with your harness fit.
 
I'll likely regret joining this.....


hp 120's and an SS plate, puts me "overweighted"...... CF200 DS, & heavy quilted Bare CF200 insulation. Incidentals (lights, reels, etc. just add more "sink")...

If you are having troubles in trim and venting, is your wing too wide for the 7.25" doubles and the air is sticking in the taco?

With nearly all modern manifolds being 215 mm Center to center tank diameter has very little impact on required wing width.

A pair of 7 inch tanks with a 215mm manifold will be a 1 inch more narrow overall than a pair of 8 inch tanks. OTOH a set of 7 inch tanks with a 185mm manifold vs a 8 inch tanks with a 215 mm manifold will differ by over 2 inches, and that may start to be noticeable with some wings.

Tobin
 
hp 120's and an SS plate, puts me "overweighted"...... CF200 DS, & heavy quilted Bare CF200 insulation. Incidentals (lights, reels, etc. just add more "sink")...

If you are having troubles in trim and venting, is your wing too wide for the 7.25" doubles and the air is sticking in the taco?

The reason I started with 14 #, total, was because I was diving the same setup, but with a single HP120 and I found that my BP + 8 # ballast was too light and BP + 8 plus 4 # on a belt was good. Weighting is to accommodate the end of a dive, right? So, adding a tank that is ~1.5# negative when empty, and a manifold and second reg, it seemed reasonable to start off by trying only removing 4 # from my single tank config.

The wing is a Halcyon Explorer 55 that I just got. I can't really answer whether air is sticking in the taco, as I haven't seen myself. But, like I said earlier, I felt pretty good overall on Saturday, with the exact same everything. Both days, I started with full tanks. Saturday, I did not have any major issues with buoyancy or trim. I only had major issues with trim after I took off the 8 # of bolt-on weight.
 
I use HP 100's with my drysuit and winter weight underwear and I use "zero" additional weight. You are definitely over weighted.
 
so bolt on weights aside, with HP120's and a SS plate you shouldn't need any extra ballast.... That would be quite surprising if you really did. Either too much air in the suit, still some residual air in the wing, or you're breathing too much. To follow up with Bob
drysuit with HP100's and a Kydex plate puts me overweight...

going head down has little do to with not enough lead, but a lot to do with moving the tanks up. When you slide them up you are increasing the moment arm quite a bit and doubles are already going to push you head down. You need to slide the bottles back to where they are supposed to be, top of the band right at the crown, don't move them. You have a DSS plate, so you have to spots that you can put the bolts, play with those first, don't muck with the bands.
What wing are you using? If you have a wing that biases lift to the bottom, you need to put the wing as high up on the bands as you can
How loose are your shoulder straps?
How tight is your crotch strap?
It is not uncommon to have restricted movement if the straps are too tight. The quick down and dirty check is to be able to reach them when sitting on the surface. If you can, then you can reach them underwater. You can double check by sitting the tanks on the picnic table with you fully strapped in and see if you can reach them. Start by adjusting your straps first, to get them right. Something has to be wrong with your harness fit.

Thanks, Tom.

I started with my bands right at the crown (the previous weekend). Then I slid them down 1.5" for the start of this weekend. and felt they were too high. For Sun, I slid them back up, so now they are 3/4" below the crown. I will move the bands back to the crown.

The wing is the Halcyon Explorer 55. It's a horseshoe. I don't know whether is qualifies as biasing the lift towards the bottom or not. I also have an older OMS 60, that I was using. It's the style with the corrugated inflator on the front side of the wing. And it has an extra vent on the right shoulder. Those are the reasons why I got the Halcyon.

Anyway, the Halcyon only has 1 set of holes for the bolts, so I can't move it around unless I make my own holes.

I was considering whether my straps are too tight. I don't change them around between diving in a 3mm wetsuit and my dry suit, and I originally "dialed it all in" when diving my 3mm. So, they could be too tight in the dry suit. I will try loosening them up.

Hearing the confidence in your post definitely makes me feel better that I can get this sorted. Last night and today I have been feeling a bit low about my ability to be successful with this. But, I did do the valve drills without too much difficulty in my 7mm wetsuit...

I'm still unsure about the weighting thing, though. I really felt too light with only the BP and 1/2 full tanks. And I promise you I did not have more than a minimal amount of air in my drysuit.

I will reset bands, loosen shoulder straps, and experiment with which bolt holes I'm using. Thanks, again!!!

---------- Post added October 19th, 2015 at 05:38 PM ----------

With nearly all modern manifolds being 215 mm Center to center tank diameter has very little impact on required wing width.

A pair of 7 inch tanks with a 215mm manifold will be a 1 inch more narrow overall than a pair of 8 inch tanks. OTOH a set of 7 inch tanks with a 185mm manifold vs a 8 inch tanks with a 215 mm manifold will differ by over 2 inches, and that may start to be noticeable with some wings.

Tobin

I have not measured, so I don't know which I have, but my tanks are the older "skinny neck" 120s with the angled valves. How would I measure to tell which I have? If it's end to end on the manifold, I can only measure that with it disassembled, right? Center to center on the tanks would tell me?
 
Do a weight check with just your undies and drysuit. Once you know how much ballast is required to get neutral in just your exposure suit with minimum gas in it, the rest of the weighting puzzle is just math. Ya, it is really that simple.

I routinely dive in a shell suit with medium fleece undies and LP 85's I use a Kydex plate, 5 lbs tail weight and no other ballast. A SS plate over weight me.


It takes about 19 lbs to get me neutral in a DUI 350, wicking layer and medium fleece.

2 x 85s empty are about -4

Bands and manifold about -4

Dual regs about -4

Kydex plate and harness ~ -2

Can Light ~-3 (Big ass battery)

Tail weight -5

Total 22 lbs of things that don't float when my back gas tanks are empty

Gives me ~3 lbs of ballast to allow for additional drysuit inflation if I have to deco on back gas.


It's easy once you actually know how buoyant your suit is.

With my 4th element arctics I switch to a SS plate.

Tobin
 
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