Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[redacted]

I get that everybodys life is entirely their own responsibility.BUT we are NOT talking an adult here.We are talking a little kid who is trusting that the adult in his life is acting in a responsible manner.

A well informed adult taking a child into a pool is a rather low risk venture. The dive shop did a good job reminding the GF of those risks. The dive shop has mixed up training agency standards and chose to use them like that are laws.

It is comparable to my letting my 11 Y/O daughter drive my truck on a private road.

 

[Frosty]

Hey Im hearing ya awap.--But I couldn't live with it if the kid died.

 

[DaleC]

It is comparable to my letting my 11 Y/O daughter drive my truck on a private road.

And if you tell the grease monkey at the garage that he would feel morally obligated to not sell you a tank of gas, though he would wash your windshield and check the oil.

 

[redacted]

Hey Im hearing ya awap.--But I couldn't live with it if the kid died.

Stick shift. She never even stalled it. But I really thought the truck and the rock pillars next to the cattle guard were goners. Survival is not an accident. Control risks and enjoy life. First part is no good if you don't have the 2nd part.

 

[NAM001]

You cant start down that slope. Would you refuse to gas a car with a broken tail light. Refuse to repair a tire for a 13yo's dirt bike. REfusrse tosell smokes to anyone that has kids. No law is being broke, I would agree if that was done,,, but it wasn't. The purpose of laws to an extent is to have a standard of enforceable right and wrong. Ones personal standing on a matter is not law.

I get that everybodys life is entirely their own responsibility.BUT we are NOT talking an adult here.We are talking a little kid who is trusting that the adult in his life is acting in a responsible manner.

---------- Post added June 22nd, 2015 at 09:35 PM ----------

That is legal also, depending on your definition of legal. Farmers do it all the time. Kids drive tractors and farm equipment on the public roads without a licence. The law provides for that in some states. Some states have what is called farm tags to identify what vehicle is exempt of licensing and inspection compliance. In my state you can do pretty much what ever you want with a farm vehicle as long as you stay with a radius of the farm home site. Farm vehicle's not only do not require license inspecitons or vehicle insurance. They don't pay road taxes. It does not remove liability, but it is covered with in the realm of the farm insurance carried.

A well informed adult taking a child into a pool is a rather low risk venture. The dive shop did a good job reminding the GF of those risks. The dive shop has mixed up training agency standards and chose to use them like that are laws.

It is comparable to my letting my 11 Y/O daughter drive my truck on a private road.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Control risks and enjoy life. . . .

That works for those who, in the context of any given activity, know what the risks are and how to control them.

I cannot say with complete certainty how the risks and ways to manage them compare between giving an 11 year-old a driving lesson on an isolated road and giving an 11 year-old a scuba lesson in the backyard pool. Some of you with more experience in these areas might be in a better position than I to say. Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't do either.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Some of you with more experience in these areas might be in a better position than I to say. Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't do either.

I guess the point is - if you would not do either would you take an active roll in preventing someone who would do either...

Where is the line - is it your line or someone else's line to be drawn? Which line is correct and who is to decide which line is right for them?

BTW I need to type less and dive more...

 

[Lorenzoid]

I guess the point is - if you would not do either would you take an active roll in preventing someone who would do either...

Where is the line - is it your line or someone else's line to be drawn? Which line is correct and who is to decide which line is right for them?

I don't know where it is "correct" to draw the line in any given scenario, but there is definitely a line for each of us to draw in a given scenario. I think it would be more than reasonable for the hypothetical bar owner or gas station employee to avoid aiding drunk driving, even if potential liability were not a factor. From our everyday experiences, most of us have a pretty good idea of the probability of a drunk driver causing injury and a pretty good ability to judge whether someone is drunk and HOW drunk and to weigh all that together. In the scenario of the original post, I think it's reasonable for a dive shop owner to avoid what they judge to be potential liability by simply refusing to get involved at all. The dive shop owner may not have enough experience relevant to taking children on scuba in a pool to feel capable of judging the risk. Same with putting a child behind the wheel of a vehicle. Some people may have the relevant experience or whatever it takes to judge and manage the risk in a given scenario, while others may not. There's plenty of such gray area. We could easily come up with a hundred other hypothetical scenarios, and each of us might draw the line in a different place. But I would argue there is always a line to draw. There is surely some scenario in which even the most hard-core proponent of letting people do what they want will draw a line.

BTW I need to type less and dive more...

Me, too. And judging from some other current threads that appear to have gone off the rails, we're not alone.

 

[EFX]

I came from a background of other extreme sports, such as rock climbing and skiing among other things. One big difference I've noticed between scuba diving and other sports is that scuba diving has a huge focus on training. Most of the people I talked to before I got into skiing said that while lessons help a lot they are necessarily necessary. Scuba diving seems to be the only thing I've done where everyone screams at your face if you aren't certified.

In which of those sports is it possible to do the equivalent of dying after swimming a distance of 4-5 feet in your family pool?

Exactly right. Before any of us made our first dive on scuba we instinctively held our breath underwater. This instinct is so powerful that you can take a 9 month old baby and dunk them underwater without concern -- they will hold their breath and come out fine. If the child panics and spits out the reg chances are he will hold is breath. I did a chamber dive at Lutheran General hospital in, I think it was Park Ridge, where the supervisor said they brought in an adult female for pulmonary distress while doing a training dive in a pool. She and her boyfriend were buddy breathing sitting at the bottom of a pool at 6 ft. He apparently took too long in giving the reg back to her so she stood up and immediatly felt symptoms. Her diagnosis: AGE.

Again, it is highly unlikely that anything will happen in this case, but you cannot dismiss the possibility.

I think it is likely something could happen given that the Grandpa is not a trained instructor. Would the Grandpa have taught the grand kid CESA? Instructors are trained to look for signs of distress and intervene before it's too late. Sure, anybody can train anyone in their pool but can they train with the due diligence, patience, and experience of an instructor. Me think not.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

She and her boyfriend were buddy breathing sitting at the bottom of a pool at 6 ft. He apparently took too long in giving the reg back to her so she stood up and immediatly felt symptoms. Her diagnosis: AGE.

Wow she must be tall to standup in a 6 foot section of pool. lol

What is interesting is this - in 24 pages of missives not a single case of an uncertified youth being taught, mentored, playing, or unsupervised child being hurt by a non instructor can be found. And yet there are several of us that have admitted to doing this very thing. So either they are so buried in Google you can not find them or the are very very very rare...
Ok - now I am going diving...