Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[Lorenzoid]

Smoking and cancer there is a link. Drinking and driving accidents there is a link. Scuba in your backyard pool with a child - I can't find a single link.... Not one...

There are millions of instances of cancer and automobile accidents. Millions smoke. Millions drive. In contrast, only a tiny fraction of the population scuba dives, and of them, I suspect only a tinier fraction ever attempted the backyard scuba thing with children. I would not be surprised if a single death from that has never happened--but it still wouldn't change my opinion that it's not worth the risk for the average diver to experiment with it.

It's hardly worth it for the CDC or anyone else to note whether a backyard pool drowning involved scuba. This will never be a blip on the radar of public health concerns.

---------- Post added June 23rd, 2015 at 05:04 PM ----------

I simply wanted to give an--another--account of things going well, from my first encounter with the new-to-me scuba shop, to my kids' subsequent first backyard pool scuba lessons. If the owner and his store manager had had any concerns, they didn't make me aware of them. Maybe our informal chat while the tank was being filled and the paperwork was being completed had something to do with allaying any concern they might have had (if any).

I'm very glad they didn't delay me from what turned out to be a very special first scuba lesson with my children. And when I returned to get the Al 63 filled and again to return the 63, we all shared laughs at the stories I told them about my kids' first encounters. Much fun for all involved, I think.

That may be it. Or maybe they just didn't think about liability. Who knows. I think a shop can approach it two ways: (1) refuse to do anything at all, or (2) gather more information and decide whether the customer seems to have a clue. I like (1), but I wouldn't criticize a shop that chose (2). An argument was made long ago in this thread that if a shop takes path (2), they could be opening themselves up for liability if their judgment proves to be wrong, and I completely agree with that. However, in reality, the risk is low to begin with, and I think a shop employee could be capable of sizing up a customer's plan and ability and renting a tank to the right customer without much risk.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

However, in reality, the risk is low to begin with, and I think a shop employee could be capable of sizing up a customer's plan and ability and renting a tank to the right customer without much risk.

So I will let the kid in a pool thing drop.

If a shop deems a person can not swim because of of a conversation, has poor grammar skills and therefore may not have a have gained a full grasp on their scuba class even though they are certified, has a wrap on their arm or a knee brace, has what looks like perceived medical condition or is obese - should these Red Flags be reasons for not renting a tank? Because that is how you make it sound.

Will they need a doctors note in order to rent a tank to prove they are free of any medical conditions? It starts to sound silly at some point and it all started with Grandpa...

 

[RJP]

and I think a shop employee could be capable of sizing up a customer's plan and ability and renting a tank to the right customer without much risk.

I'm going to hang onto this post... for re-posting at some point in the not too distant future when you'll decry the the fact that some or other "shop monkey" has proven themselves incapable of understanding something that you think is quite simple.

 

[redacted]

Shops that turn away paying, qualified customers lose money. And they lose customer base. When they do it so publicly, they magnify that loss. While it is quite unlikely that I would ever go to Ky to dive, if I did I would be sure to avoid this shop. While I fully understand why someone would say decide they would not expose their children to a scuba experience, I do not understand why a shop thinks they need to police such a thing. The scuba police attitude will cost them business.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm going to hang onto this post... for re-posting at some point in the not too distant future when you'll decry the the fact that some or other "shop monkey" has proven themselves incapable of understanding something that you think is quite simple.

Me--take inconsistent positions? No way. Never happen.

---------- Post added June 23rd, 2015 at 06:30 PM ----------

Shops that turn away paying, qualified customers lose money. And they lose customer base. When they do it so publicly, they magnify that loss. While it is quite unlikely that I would ever go to Ky to dive, if I did I would be sure to avoid this shop. While I fully understand why someone would say decide they would not expose their children to a scuba experience, I do not understand why a shop thinks they need to police such a thing. The scuba police attitude will cost them business.

I'll drive up to KY and buy something from them to make up for the loss of your business.

Okay, I'll fess up that I spend my days advising clients how NOT to get into trouble. A colleague once joked that most of our advice comes down to "Don't do that." Often, not doing whatever it was they were considering doing would cost them business. Sometimes they take the advice and sometimes they don't. But I am supposedly knowledgeable about the risks in the niche I am advising about. In contrast, I only have a poor grasp of the risk involved here. Sure, it SEEMS low to me. But I don't have kids and don't have a clue about mixing kids, a pool, and scuba gear. All I know about scuba is what I was taught or have enough personal experience with to believe is true. It seems some here have learned what works by experimentation and have lived to tell the tale and then some. That's great for them. In all seriousness, I'm sure they and their kids have had fun. Anyway, I suppose the reason I keep yammering here is that I kinda like seeing someone decide NOT to do something because of a perceived risk. I find it refreshing. I completely understand your point of view, though.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

But then where would the "School of Hard Knocks" get their business? Got to start somewhere... Lol Here hold my beer and watch this....

 

[redacted]

Me--take inconsistent positions? No way. Never happen.

---------- Post added June 23rd, 2015 at 06:30 PM ----------



I'll drive up to KY and buy something from them to make up for the loss of your business.

Okay, I'll fess up that I spend my days advising clients how NOT to get into trouble. A colleague once joked that most of our advice comes down to "Don't do that." Often, not doing whatever it was they were considering doing would cost them business. Sometimes they take the advice and sometimes they don't. But I am supposedly knowledgeable about the risks in the niche I am advising about. In contrast, I only have a poor grasp of the risk involved here. Sure, it SEEMS low to me. But I don't have kids and don't have a clue about mixing kids, a pool, and scuba gear. All I know about scuba is what I was taught or have enough personal experience with to believe is true. It seems some here have learned what works by experimentation and have lived to tell the tale and then some. That's great for them. In all seriousness, I'm sure they and their kids have had fun. Anyway, I suppose the reason I keep yammering here is that I kinda like seeing someone decide NOT to do something because of a perceived risk. I find it refreshing. I completely understand your point of view, though.

A long time ago when I had to work for a living, my duties included safety officer so I do understand risk assessment and mitigation. And I respect your right to make your own risk decisions. My gripe is when someone who is not in a position of authority tries to decide to make those decisions for me. Their store, their rules. But I strongly believe the only difference they made that day (besides the worthwhile advice) was to lose that sale and others down the road. I doubt very much that they actually stopped that GF from safely exposing his grandchildren to scuba.

I guess it is a good thing that there are so many scuba customers with plenty of money to spend that it will not make any difference.

 

[oldschoolto]

If you listen to lawyers, you'll never do anything.. No matter what.... Life is a risk.. And No matter how hard you try to do everything right... Some "Expert" will come along and say you were a accident waiting to happen...

Jim...

 

[NAM001]

Basking Ridge Diver

I enjoy the posts. I wish perhaps others could take on the wider view that each of us does not have the needed information to make judgements on what others should be or should not be doing with their families.

I find it extremely hard to believe that no matter how long you have been out of the water,,,, you wouldn't tell the kid exhale when you come up. especially in say a 3-4 ft pool. Which in fact we do not know how deep the pool was. I think too many have this belief that all people are subject to our own views or mostly fears of the world. This is why " it takes a village" is a danger. I wonder where so many of us would be if we hadn't just went ahead and climbed that tree with out a net or 3 adults supervising. All of course graduates of tree climbing 101. Of course we all know that is a bit of a reach cause if you fell you might tear a branch off and poke your eye out when you handled. We need to start looking at the positive side of things instead of focusing on the maybe possible 1oa a 1000 chance that something might go wrong. Each day we go to work and use cell phones on the road and that is some how ok even given the stats on phone related deaths. Yet in order to take away the focus on our selves we look to something else to make into a more detrimental activity to make us feel better. If put under the same scrutiny where would we all be when it comes to . driving, walking, use of technology, teaching our kids how to ride a bike swim, walk to school, traffic safety, play well with others. We always over react to an incident and put the blame on others. The latest example I have seen is . 10 kids in one year got run over buy parents backing up. solution???? legal mandate camera on all vehicles 2015 and later. So you can do that but you cant disable a phone from sending in a moving vehicle knowing that using it has caused thousands of deaths. I guess the kids aren't safe when the village is addicted to cell phones.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Reminds me of the Grateful Dead - "Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been."

The thread started out with us just talking about a decision made by one shop.

To be fair - I use my LDS for some gear and to find local trips. When I want their advise I ask for it - sometimes they laugh at me when I bring in my 40 year old regs - not for tuning but to make sure the new 6 inch hose for my spg fits my 40 year old unbalanced 1st stage. But we all talk and laugh and enjoy diving and it is all good - I have yet to be refused any service or had any issues...

I fill my own tanks - and I just thought it was strange that someone certified could be refused business because of a conversation.... just all very strange to me...

But after 26 pages I am starting to understand that you are better off keeping your intentions to yourself than having a conversation and wishing that you had not... Kind of a sad state of affairs but it is what it is...