Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[nimoh]

I am not talking about rate of change during ascent/descent. I am talking about per foot of the multiple of pressure change (I really do not know how to say it correctly). We double the pressure in the first 33' while only tripling pressure (50% more) at 66'. I would suspect that the most significant physiological change is at the 0 --> 33' range. Keep in mind that it is still linear change per foot so again for an understudied event, what statistically shows a difference for a given depth? I suspect most of the damage is done from 0 --> 33' regardless of final depth. I also suspect that any depth limitation specifically addressing youth divers is arbitrary and based on limited information and assumptions.

Here is a good article (hope I can link it as it is a very relevant article) on the issues boulderjohn and nimoh are talking about. I think this area needs honest discussion and study. Over all, there are no specific depth limitations beyond normal Rec and Training, from PADI, after 12 yrs. Awareness of potential issues is also key and would indeed be a good education point from the agencies to parents of youth divers and youth students. Note that this article has one highlighted comment, to paraphrase - "There is insufficient medical evidence for or against youth diving. "

http://www.danap.org/DAN_diving_safety/DAN_Doc/pdfs/young2.pdf

I don't understand when you refer to the per foot pressure change (and by the way, that would be a rate of change). How would going from 1ata to 2ata in 33 feet be more detrimental than going from 1ata to 3ata in 66 feet? In other words, why would the distance matter to the human body? I think it would be the opposite, where the human body (including in children) can tolerate a certain amount of pressure, but at some point hit a limit where body parts succumb to the pressure.

The depth limits are arbitrary and probably has a safety margin applied to the original arbitrary limit. This is the same for all limits in diving. Doing a recreational dive to 135' for 5 minutes is unlikely to kill a recrational diver or even get them bent, because it is an arbitrary limit.

I agree that there is insufficient medical evidence for or against youth diving, there are just hypotheses against it. I think most arguments against youth diving centers more around emotional maturity, ability to focus and follow direction, etc.

 

[DaleC]

John, I wasn't trying to say there was some equality between formal/informal educators as a whole. Just noting that the idea that formal = good, informal = bad doesn't always bear out. Statistics always break down at the individual level.

Lorenzoid. It all depends on who's doing the talking. I have had some pretty weird encounters with shop staff (when I went to shops) about what I was doing. Any one of them could have posted to SB about this crazy guy who's soloing with old gear and ask whether they should fill my tank or not. Put the right spin on it and anything sounds horrible or ok. We are all bouncing our opinions about this situation based on one side of the story, repeated by someone (no offense meant) that has a definite bias towards one way of thinking.

People are quick to say "don't rent the tank" because you know the customer is going to do something "wrong". What about renting a tank to someone who says they are going to solo dive when they don't have a solo cert card. Deep dive when they only have an OW cert. Use old gear when you feel it is unsafe because you are unfamiliar with it...

What about renting gear to someone who doesn't even know how to set up that gear. I have seen someone show up to a dive with all the gear they rented and not be able to put the BCD on the tank or know how to install the ditchable weight. Is there any immorality about providing someone like that with gear and leaving them to their own devices? At least one shop thought not.

 

[Frosty]

You know what folks--I think it comes down to something pretty simple.
"Could you live with yourself if grampa or the grandkid died ?"
For me the answer is simple -NO.
I couldn't live with the possibility.

 

[Doc]

[sarcasm]
@Frosty.... We in the Colonies have also been disabused of Darwinian Theory. Force them to live, force them to breed.
[/sarcasm]

 

[NAM001]

Not picking a fight but I see it as,,,, Is someones legal personal activities the responsibility of/ or subject to the opinion of a business. I realize that the shop did not ask for info but was given it. At some point you just have to turn a deaf ear. This is why i say this. I admit this may be a bad example,,,,, You have someone come in and get 10 tanks filled with nitrox32 in the morning. 4 hours later you are filling them again, You know the customer cant be using all ten tanks himself in 4 hours. Should you demand nitrox cards for all that will/ or hypothetically may be using the filled tanks. So is it you have one customer or do you have 5-10 customers bering served buy the ten fills. My position would be that you are filling for one customer and not an unknown quantity. Then there is of course the possibility that the ten tanks that came in 4 hours later was like but different tanks than the morning. The guy with the tanks is the club's fill man for the day and does nothing but haul a portion of 20 tanks onsite for refilling.

You know what folks--I think it comes down to something pretty simple.
"Could you live with yourself if grampa or the grandkid died ?"
For me the answer is simple -NO.
I couldn't live with the possibility.

 

[ZzzKing]

You know what folks--I think it comes down to something pretty simple.
"Could you live with yourself if grampa or the grandkid died ?"
For me the answer is simple -NO.
I couldn't live with the possibility.

Could you live with yourself if YOU died? That is a possibility on every dive you do. At some point you accept the risk because you determine that it is a very low probability, but maybe the dive shop shouldn't accept that potential liability and refuse to fill your, or anyone else's cylinder. Maybe the dive shop should close its doors to protect everyone from certain death. Maybe diving should just be outlawed.

I'm not saying I would not have done exactly the same thing as the OP but it does seem like creeping Nannystate-ism to me.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Not picking a fight but I see it as,,,, Is someones legal personal activities the responsibility of/ or subject to the opinion of a business. I realize that the shop did not ask for info but was given it. At some point you just have to turn a deaf ear. This is why i say this. I admit this may be a bad example,,,,, You have someone come in and get 10 tanks filled with nitrox32 in the morning. 4 hours later you are filling them again, You know the customer cant be using all ten tanks himself in 4 hours. Should you demand nitrox cards for all that will/ or hypothetically may be using the filled tanks. So is it you have one customer or do you have 5-10 customers bering served buy the ten fills. My position would be that you are filling for one customer and not an unknown quantity. Then there is of course the possibility that the ten tanks that came in 4 hours later was like but different tanks than the morning. The guy with the tanks is the club's fill man for the day and does nothing but haul a portion of 20 tanks onsite for refilling.

That's a great example. Does that sort of thing really happen? I know nothing about dive shop operations except from the perspective of being an occasional customer in various shops. I have always assumed that a shop wouldn't let me rent more tanks than I was likely personally able to use. Maybe I have been naive.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

You know what folks--I think it comes down to something pretty simple.
"Could you live with yourself if grampa or the grandkid died ?"
For me the answer is simple -NO.
I couldn't live with the possibility.

I will stop after this -

So do you see it as your duty to stop all that seemed destined for failure regardless of age or experience?

Because you could take this to the X factor and start poking your nose where it does not belong - where do you draw the line?
I guess that is where I get stuck with this philosophy - it seems like you are either All In or All Out. Once you start with the half in and half out you will then get caught not stopping someone that may just die and you not being able to live with yourself...

I may be my brothers keeper - but I am not going analyze every move someone makes to ensure they do not fail or die... There are some folks that can not or do not want to be helped - and I do not see my job as determining their destiny...

 

[NAM001]

Happens all the time. One drives for the group and gets refills and food. I have done it my self for classes being a non diver for the day. Another situation would be one diver getting tanks rented for a group. One brings air and other pays for the fuel and another brings food. Though frequently done it is not something a shop sees every day unless they are in the right location. Normally an on sight location will ask for all the cards. but a shop miles away from a site does not. I have even had a shop refuse a fill because there were too many tanks in the back of a pickup truck citing a 1000$ rule and commercial transporting of tanks against DOT regulations. I did not use that shop again. Another shop refused to give me an air fill because of a nitrox sticker on the tank. Said he had to remove th4e valve to insure there was no nitrox in it before filling the tank with air and then scrape the stickers from the tank ,,, get this ,,,, per his insurance requirements. After further discussion and asking him what grade of air he had (sticker scraping????) ,,, he responded "what do you mean what grade of air,,,, breathing air". That one shop is responsible for me getting my own compressor.

To the credit of that last shop he said he had been having problems with people doing pp fills at home filling the O2 and then having him top off with air. The mans lake is 25 ft deep, an O2 analyzer would tell him what was in the tank or venting the tank to empty would do it also. but these were all precursor to getting a vip fee before filling with air or renting tanks for shop profeit. In my case I had a partial tank of 32 and breathed it down to 300 psi and asked for an air fill. The BS given was that if there were anything in the tank before he filled it one could get a toxic mix. I then reminded him that I just got out of the water and 2200 psi on top of any nitrox mix would not be toxic. Again he says "My insurance requirements).
Now when I go to is dive park I take 6+ tanks with me 3 lp120's 2 lp95's 2 lp85's to choose from. NOt only does he loose business from me but others I bring tanks for. When the club goes to the park we all bring our own (personal or rented ) tanks/equipment.

That's a great example. Does that sort of thing really happen? I know nothing about dive shop operations except from the perspective of being an occasional customer in various shops. I have always assumed that a shop wouldn't let me rent more tanks than I was likely personally able to use. Maybe I have been naive.

 

[Frosty]

I get that everybodys life is entirely their own responsibility.BUT we are NOT talking an adult here.We are talking a little kid who is trusting that the adult in his life is acting in a responsible manner.