Fatality at Jersey Island

[tomfcrist]

I'd like to take this is a bit different direction--the fact that contact was lost with the victim diver during the dive. We have been concentrating on the rebreather itself, and not on all the other aspects of this accident. The lost contact kept assistance from occurring in a timely manner, as described at the very beginning of this thread. In accident analysis, all aspects must be examined, so what about the lost contact?

Years ago, when I was diving in limited visibility with my buddy off the Oregon coast, we used a "buddy line" to keep us together. The buddy line was a four-foot ,1/4 inch diameter nylon line, with brass snap links on the end and attached to a belt harness which had parachute "D" rings sewn into each side of the belt. That led to my buddy and I being together and not separated when we were rolled by a very large wave. We ended up on the surface together after being rolled, dumped our weight belts, and spent about 3 hours awaiting pickup by the U.S. Coast Guard.

What would have been the outcome had these divers been linked together with buddy lines in that limited visibility? Would this have been a fatality, or simply an incident because they had constant communication with each other and could thereby assist one another when the emergency occurred with the rebreather?

SeaRat

That's an interesting question. I don't think buddy lines will ever be an accepted best practice in the recreational realm, however I completely understand the desirability of the system in the commercial and military realm...

 

[gianaameri]

I'd like to take this is a bit different direction--the fact that contact was lost with the victim diver during the dive. We have been concentrating on the rebreather itself, and not on all the other aspects of this accident. The lost contact kept assistance from occurring in a timely manner, as described at the very beginning of this thread. In accident analysis, all aspects must be examined, so what about the lost contact?

Years ago, when I was diving in limited visibility, I used a "buddy line" to keep us together. The buddy line was a four-foot ,1/4 inch diameter nylon line, with brass snap links on the end and attached to a belt harness which had parachute "D" rings sewn into each side of the belt. That led to my buddy and I being together and not separated when we were rolled by a very large wave. We ended up on the surface together after being rolled, dumped our weight belts, and spent about 3 hours awaiting pickup by the U.S. Coast Guard.

What would have been the outcome had these divers been linked together with buddy lines in that limited visibility? Would this have been a fatality, or simply an incident because they had constant communication with each other and could thereby assist one another when the emergency occurred with the rebreather?

SeaRat

Without a Drager Crown Strap and BOV (with buddy line), she would have drowned (body recovery easier, or 3 drowned as she would have dragged everybody down).

With a Draeger Crown Strap and BOV (with buddy line), subject to adequate training, she would have lived.

That is for this accident which was Open Water.

In a cave, she would have been a fatality in case of loss of consciousness or serious mental impairment, but a Draeger Crown Strap and BOV could have improved her only chance which is self-rescue (buddy line not feasible).

I am sure one or two fellow forum members might disagree...

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

That's an interesting question. I don't think buddy lines will ever be an accepted best practice in the recreational realm, however I completely understand the desirability of the system in the commercial and military realm...

I have been known to use two dog leashes in really bad viz with my son - the two swivel snaps are connected and we used the wrist straps. Once he got the hang of sticking around in bad viz or at least flashlight distance there was no need for them later... They were not very effective as they would snag on the rocks but in a pinch they worked and made him feel comfortable - he was very new to diving and the viz was about a foot and a half.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Without a Drager Crown Strap and BOV (with buddy line), she would have drowned (body recovery easier, or 3 drowned as she would have dragged everybody down).

With a Draeger Crown Strap and BOV (with buddy line), subject to adequate training, she would have lived.

That is for this accident which was Open Water.

In a cave, she would have been a fatality in case of loss of consciousness or serious mental impairment, but a Draeger Crown Strap and BOV could have improved her only chance which is self-rescue (buddy line not feasible).

I am sure one or two fellow forum members might disagree...

Having taught diver rescue techniques years ago, I am one to disagree. It appears that you and several others are completely equipment-dependent, saying that without a Crown Strap and a Bail Out Valve (I had to put that in for those who may not know what a "BOV" is), the diver would inevitably drown. Also stating that "...she would have dragged everybody down..." gives the impression that it is best with a rebreather to dive solo. We in fact know that many of these deaths come from rebreather divers who are diving solo, and pass out and drawn. My feeling is that the buddy system is much more important when using a rebreather than when using Open Circuit (OC) scuba. A vast majority of my diving over the last 25 years has been OC solo diving; I won't go to a rebreather because of the necessity of having a buddy around to "bail you out" when suddenly going unconscious from excess CO2 or too much O2 (convulsions) or too little O2 (sudden blackout). I see no reason for this inrcident to become a fatality if the two divers had not been separated.

SeaRat

PS, a Holllis rebreather with a Draeger BOV (Crown Strap included) might be seen by the manufacturer as a breech of their policy of not mixing different manufacturer's equipment, and could cancel the warranted on the unit. Hollis does offer a BOV for the Prism.

 

[gianaameri]

Having taught diver rescue techniques years ago, I am one to disagree. It appears that you and several others are completely equipment-dependent, saying that without a Crown Strap and a Bail Out Valve (I had to put that in for those who may not know what a "BOV" is), the diver would inevitably drown. Also stating that "...she would have dragged everybody down..." gives the impression that it is best with a rebreather to dive solo. We in fact know that many of these deaths come from rebreather divers who are diving solo, and pass out and drawn. My feeling is that the buddy system is much more important when using a rebreather than when using Open Circuit (OC) scuba. A vast majority of my diving over the last 25 years has been OC solo diving; I won't go to a rebreather because of the necessity of having a buddy around to "bail you out" when suddenly going unconscious from excess CO2 or too much O2 (convulsions) or too little O2 (sudden blackout). I see no reason for this inrcident to become a fatality if the two divers had not been separated.

SeaRat

PS, a Holllis rebreather with a Draeger BOV (Crown Strap included) might be seen by the manufacturer as a breech of their policy of not mixing different manufacturer's equipment, and could cancel the warranted on the unit.

No, it is not best to dive Solo with a rebreather.

It is best to always (See Note 1) to be with a buddy for all the good reasons you give.

However, without the rebreather diver having a Draeger Crown Strap and a BOV, he/she drowns, with or without the buddy line, or with or without the buddy.

Specific to the topic, only if Jillian Smith had a Draeger Crown Strap and a BOV she could have been saved from drowning by the buddy with a buddy line, under the circumstances.

Note 1: In a cave it is bordering the impossible for a buddy to extract an unconscious or semi-conscious rebreather diver. The probability of success very much depends on the cave and distance to be covered.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

No, it is not best to dive Solo with a rebreather.

It is best to always (See Note 1) to be with a buddy for all the good reasons you give.

However, without the rebreather diver having a Draeger Crown Strap and a BOV, he/she drowns, with or without the buddy line, or with or without the buddy.

Specific to the topic, only if Jillian Smith had a Draeger Crown Strap and a BOV she could have been saved from drowning by the buddy with a buddy line, under the circumstances.

Note 1: In a cave it is bordering the impossible for a buddy to extract an unconscious or semi-conscious rebreather diver. The probability of success very much depends on the cave and distance to be covered.

First, this was not a cave diving situation; it was open water and fairly shallow. You don't know the level of training of the buddy divers, but if she was an instructor, I feel her husband was probably pretty well trained. Second, drowning takes time. That's what she ran out of by being separated. A good buddy diver can tell when a buddy is not responding well, and intervene, perhaps even before unconsciousness sets in. So you cannot in good faith say that absolutely she would have drowned without the BOV and crown strap (Draeger or not).

SeaRat

 

[gianaameri]

First, this was not a cave diving situation; it was open water and fairly shallow. You don't know the level of training of the buddy divers, but if she was an instructor, I feel her husband was probably pretty well trained. Second, drowning takes time. That's what she ran out of by being separated. A good buddy diver can tell when a buddy is not responding well, and intervene, perhaps even before unconsciousness sets in. So you cannot in good faith say that absolutely she would have drowned without the BOV and crown strap (Draeger or not).

SeaRat

Drowning takes a spoonful of water in the lungs, not much, and that is what would have happened when she went unconscious.

We know she actually drowned in her own fluids (my understanding).

Realistically, buddy line or not, it is very difficult without her having a Draeger Crown Strap to be able to do anything before her losing the mouthpiece and drowning.

If she has a Draeger Crown Strap, that gives you the time to intervene before she loses the mouthpiece.

Then, all going according to the above, you do need to activate the BOV without causing water ingress.

We leave out the complications of the ascent with 6 points of buoyancy to control (3 the rescuer, and 3 the unconscious diver, assuming each is in on rebreather, dry-suit, and BCD). If you get as far as to activating the BOV without allowing water ingress is already a near miracle.

Bear in mind that with rebreather diving autopsies have shown the diver drowned without ingesting water (dry-drowning). The glottis closed and never re-opened, despite successful buddy intervention and rescue, so the diver was irreversibly dead.

I mention cave diving in Note 1 because it is the only exception to the word "ALWAYS" I used below.

 

[boulderjohn]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Veterans of this thread will no doubt note a lot of missing posts. Mea culpa. I am trying hard to keep the discussion on the topic of the unfortunate passing of a woman using a rebreather. Those who wish to discuss overall rebreather design rather than design aspects specific to this case should take them to the rebreather forum, where there is a current thread on that topic. I removed a lot of posts arguing whether the average woman has comparable abilities in spatial relations to the average male, since that tells us nothing about the abilities of this specific woman or this specific instance. I will remove such posts in the future. I removed posts that called people names, which is always a violation of the ToS. Please be civil! I removed one very helpful post that suggested I get a hold of some good liquor after moderating this thread, but I retained memory of that good advice and will work on it this evening.

In past years, moderators would go into posts that had some offensive portions and edit them. We rarely do that these days, for a variety of reasons. Consequently, some posts were deleted that included some fairly good information in them. If some of your good information was lost, I apologize and hope you will take the time to repeat it.

I also apologize to those of you who take pride in your total number of "likes." A whole slew of them went down the drain in this hacking exercise.

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[John C. Ratliff]

Drowning takes a spoonful of water in the lungs, not much, and that is what would have happened when she went unconscious.

We know she actually drowned in her own fluids (my understanding).

Realistically, buddy line or not, it is very difficult without her having a Draeger Crown Strap to be able to do anything before her losing the mouthpiece and drowning.

If she has a Draeger Crown Strap, that gives you the time to intervene before she loses the mouthpiece.

Then, all going according to the above, you do need to activate the BOV without causing water ingress.

We leave out the complications of the ascent with 6 points of buoyancy to control (3 the rescuer, and 3 the unconscious diver, assuming each is in on rebreather, dry-suit, and BCD). If you get as far as to activating the BOV without allowing water ingress is already a near miracle.

Bear in mind that with rebreather diving autopsies have shown the diver drowned without ingesting water (dry-drowning). The glottis closed and never re-opened, despite successful buddy intervention and rescue, so the diver was irreversibly dead.

I mention cave diving in Note 1 because it is the only exception to the word "ALWAYS" I used below.

Okay, let's take this one by one.
Drowning takes a spoonful of water in the lungs
What you are speaking of here is a spasm of the larynx, which seals off the lungs. This spasm occurs in the neck region, and not in the lungs, in response to that "spoonful" of water. Actual drowning occurs later, when the diver is unconscious and the epiglottis in the larynx relaxes and allows water into the lungs. There are two types of drowning, salt water and freshwater drowning. This was a salt water drowning incident.

We know she actually drowned in her own fluids
This is a slightly different situation, in which the stomach contents are aspirated during the drowning process as the victim vomits and then inhales the stomach contents. It occurs in conjunction with the drowning process, and is a very bad complication for drowning because of the acidity of the stomach contents and the resulting damage to the lung tissues.

We leave out the complications of the ascent with 6 points of buoyancy to control
You are over-playing this situation. This diver needed either to get air immediately, or to get to the surface ASAP; a buoyant ascent or an emergency swimming ascent would be available to do so, ignoring trying to "control" it. She would die underwater without air, and she was only about 40 feet deep and there was no decompression situation or overhead environment. If emergency air (pony bottle, BOV, secondary OC regulator) was available, the buddy could easily intervene. If she was unconscious, the rescue technique is to get her to the surface ASAP. Being in direct contact with her buddy could have facilitated getting her to the surface, where in-water artificial respiration techniques could have been used to restore breathing. Yes, there is a potential for overpressure lung injury to the diver with a buoyant ascent, but the alternative is death.

Bear in mind that with rebreather diving autopsies have shown the diver drowned without ingesting water
What you are describing here is not drowning, but asphyxiation. "Drowning" without ingesting water is not a medical definition or term. In short, the term "dry drowning" in more of a lay term than a medical term for drowning.

Drown-ing (droun'ing) [MoSH: Drowning] suffocation and death resulting from filling of the lungs with water or other substance or fluid, so that gas exchange becomes impossible. near d. survival for any length of time after submersion in water and temporary suffocation; it sometimes ends with secondary drowning.
Dorlands' Illustrated Medical Dictionary, 29th Edition, W.B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia..., 2000, page 545.

Here is some of what Wikipedia states concerning "dry drowning"

The person may effectively drown without any sort of liquid. In cases of dry drowning in which the victim was immersed, very little fluid is aspirated into the lungs. The laryngospasm reflex essentially causes asphyxiation and neurogenic pulmonary edema^[1] (œdema).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_drowning

SeaRat

 

[gianaameri]

Okay, let's take this one by one.
Drowning takes a spoonful of water in the lungs
What you are speaking of here is a spasm of the glottis, which seals off the lungs. Actual drowning occurs later, when the diver is unconscious and the glottis relaxes and allows water into the lungs. There are two types of drowning, salt water and freshwater drowning. In salt water drowning, the water stays in the lungs because there is on osmotic gradient for the water to be absorbed into the bloodstream. For freshwater drowning, the blood becomes diluted because of the volume of water that enters through the lungs. This was a salt water drowning incident.

We know she actually drowned in her own fluids
This is a slightly different situation, in which the stomach contents are aspirated during the drowning process as the victim vomits and then inhales the stomach contents. It occurs in conjunction with the drowning process, and is a very bad complication for drowning because of the acidity of the stomach contents and the resulting damage to the lung tissues.

We leave out the complications of the ascent with 6 points of buoyancy to control
You are over-playing this situation. This diver needed either to get air immediately, or to get to the surface ASAP; a buoyant ascent or an emergency swimming ascent would be available to do so, ignoring trying to "control" it. She would die underwater without air, and she was only about 40 feet deep and there was no decompression situation or overhead environment. If emergency air (pony bottle, BOV, secondary OC regulator) was available, the buddy could easily intervene. If she was unconscious, the rescue technique is to get her to the surface ASAP. Being in direct contact with her buddy could have facilitated getting her to the surface, where in-water artificial respiration techniques could have been used to restore breathing. Yes, there is a potential for overpressure lung injury to the diver with a buoyant ascent, but the alternative is death.

Bear in mind that with rebreather diving autopsies have shown the diver drowned without ingesting water
What you are describing here is not drowning, but asphyxiation. "Drowning" without ingesting water is not a medical definition or term. In short, the term "dry drowning" in more of a lay term than a medical term for drowning.


Here is some of what Wikipedia states concerning "dry drowning"
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SeaRat

My point is that an unconscious diver submerged underwater will drown.

The airway is compromised and I see it no other way.

The solution to that is to have some equipment and systems, and procedures, and controls to prevent that.

The equipment is the Draeger Crown Strap (Hollis won't mind if you put a non-Hollis mouthpiece on the rebbie) and a BOV (can be Hollis).

Systems, procedure, and controls is a topic in its own.

What is your point?