Why is a Jacket BC better than a BP/W?

[PfcAJ]

Side mount. That z-mount thing with all the hoses is just bizarre and I can't believe the UTD people promote it.

Rly?

$$$$$

If there's one thing in this thread that's simple, its the relationship between selling that contraption and makin' some cashish.

 

[dfx]

None of those statements are true in all cases. Yet you made no attempt to qualify your comments, and stated them as though they were definitively and always true. They are not.

Ok then. How many BP/W setups sport weight integration "out of the box", meaning not as an add-on or option? I have yet to see one. (Packages which have such an option included don't count.) Maybe it exists, but even then the fact is that most don't.

What benefits do I get from diving a BP/W over a jacket BCD with identical features? I don't buy "instantly improved trim" and I also don't buy "more streamlined", as you can only be more streamlined (or "less cluttered", same idea) by leaving features out. I'm not interested in tinkering with, modifying or customizing my setup.

Shows a lack of understanding of what a BP/W is ... by its nature it's a component system. Would be simpler to just say that if you don't want to put effort into choosing a rig that's suited specifically to you, then get one that has everything built in so you don't have to think about it.

Why yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Wasn't so hard now, was it?

If on the other hand you want a system that allows you to pick and choose features, then a component system like a BP/W would be a better approach.

Which I have admitted to long time ago. But I and a lot of other divers aren't interested in a customizable setup. We want something that works and with a certain feature set. A jacket BCD does the job quite well and there's less to worry about. Why bother with a customizable setup if you never customize it?

 

[cocoajoe]

I view jacket BCs as something similar to why yoke regs/tank valves are the norm when DIN is a clearly better choice. Just something that was started years ago and never changed.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Normally I value your posts quite highly, but... come on, really? "If you want to get rid of the weight belt," how is that a generalization? I don't know how many times I've posted that now. If you don't like WI and/or prefer a belt, then please use it. If you're OK with diving only with non-ditchable weight, please go for it. But many of us need or want ditchable weight, hate the belt and want WI. Jacket BCDs have that problem solved. Obviously you'd get one with WI if you're part of that group, derp. BP/W doesn't have that problem solved, only other stuff you add on to it solves it.

I think you mean "if you buy certain jacket BCDs, they have that problem solved; if you buy certain BP/W packages, they too have it solved." There's no reason for anyone to need this much hammering to get a very simple concept: if you want a BP/W rig with WI, you simply order it with WI pouches and tell your dealer you want the thing assembled for you. Why anyone would want to do that instead of putting it together themselves, thereby (a) getting to play with their expensive toy, (b) saving a few bucks on setup, maybe, and (c) having a chance to see how the thing you're taking underwater with you actually works...I don't know. But apparently there are lazy divers out there.

As a side note, I've yet to see any WI system as secure as the stuff available for BPs (see, e.g., Halcyon's current ABC system). Pockets falling out of jackets are common--I have a collection of weights to prove it, though I throw/give away the pockets I find. Even things like the Zeagle system have more issues.

---------- Post added August 26th, 2014 at 02:59 PM ----------

Ok then. How many BP/W setups sport weight integration "out of the box", meaning not as an add-on or option? I have yet to see one. (Packages which have such an option included don't count.)

Why not? Your own silly posts already admitted that a "BP/W" is just a collection of different bits of gear...so aren't all BP/Ws already "packages of options" according to you?

 

[dfx]

Why not? Your own silly posts already admitted that a "BP/W" is just a collection of different bits of gear...so aren't all BP/Ws already "packages of options" according to you?

Normally I wouldn't bother replying to you since as usual, all you have to offer is insults, but I'll make an exception. It's because that's exactly my point. The fact that BP/W is a "collection of different bits of gear" is exactly the complexity I'm talking about, that's what you avoid by going for a jacket BCD. Sure, you can also avoid it by getting it preassembled, but then what do you gain over a jacket BCD? Other than the apparent genital enlargement effect it must be having?

I must say that this thread has been most insightful. I never knew how defensive BP/W can get when their, um, religion (??) is being challenged.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Ok then. How many BP/W setups sport weight integration "out of the box", meaning not as an add-on or option? I have yet to see one. (Packages which have such an option included don't count.) Maybe it exists, but even then the fact is that most don't.

Dive Rite Transplate ... my alpha buddy's been diving one for almost 10 years now, and it came with WI pockets. No assembly required ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Is checking the box for "yes, I want weight integration" on an on-line order form that much more "complex" than walking down an aisle in the local dive shop and rummaging past the jacket BCs that lack weight integration until you find a jacket BC that includes weight integration (and other features or "bits of gear" that you find desirable, such as pockets and D-rings where you like them)? Shopping is shopping.

As for "what do you gain over a jacket BCD" by buying a preassembled BP/W, the answer is perhaps nothing--but that is not an argument against this supposed "complexity." The process of choosing features and making the purchase can be pretty much equivalent whether one is shopping for a jacket or a BP/W. It should be taken out of the equation.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Sure, you can also avoid it by getting it preassembled, but then what do you gain over a jacket BCD?

Lack of inherent buoyancy. Location of 2-6lbs of weight directly over your lungs. Smaller/flatter system for travel. Optimal attachment points for things like slung ponys, backup lights, drysuit inflation systems, and can lights. STAs with integrated weights for those who need more lead. Etc. ad nauseam.

And the same "complexity" of choice exists with a jacket BCD as exists with choosing the right collection of bits for a BP/W rig: you still have to consider the options available on any given jacket BCD and then figure out which ones have all of what you need.

There's nothing wrong with a jacket BCD - there's just no advantage in one, whatsoever, over a BP/W aside from them generally being easier to buy off the shelf from most LDSs...and that's easier in the sense of being stocked, not really being easier in terms of not having to think at all about whether a given BCD has what you need.

I get that you're trying to keep the thinking to a minimum, and from what I've seen here that's a wise choice. But even a jacket BCD can't remove the necessity to think at least a little bit about whether it has what you need. And that little bit of thought is no less than the little bit required to select a BP/W rig.

 

[drrich2]

Yoke vs. DIN. Someone went there. Another topic that leads to lengthy debates...

The fact that BP/W is a "collection of different bits of gear" is exactly the complexity I'm talking about, that's what you avoid by going for a jacket BCD. Sure, you can also avoid it by getting it preassembled, but then what do you gain over a jacket BCD?

This is a point of curiosity. BP/W is often advocated over jacket for better horizontal trim & higher customizability, and judging from this thread, less drag. Also less padding, so less weight to sink the traditional jacket. Perhaps that's an apples to oranges comparison for people who want the stuff on a traditional jacket BCD?

Let's say I get a single tank setup; an aluminum backplate for traveling light, wing, 2 ditch able integrated weight pockets, 2 smaller trim weight pockets (like on my Sherwood Avid), 2 big pockets (also like on the Avid BCD), and I get whatever 'comfort' stuff on the back plate and get a webbing system that lets me quickly fasten it on me like a jacket (whatever that product is).

In a nutshell, I've tried to make a jacket BCD out of BP/W parts!

Now, any thoughts on how 'superior' to a traditional jacket BCD it's going to handle in the water?

Richard.

P.S.: I see Dr. Lecter addressed some of my questions while I was typing this.

 

[EFX]

As a side note, I've yet to see any WI system as secure as the stuff available for BPs (see, e.g., Halcyon's current ABC system). Pockets falling out of jackets are common--I have a collection of weights to prove it, though I throw/give away the pockets I find. Even things like the Zeagle system have more issues.

Then you don't get around enough. Take a look at the ScubaPro Nighthawk BCD. It uses fastex clips that secure the pockets. They can't come out unless you squeeze the clips. I tried velcro weight pockets mounted on the waist straps on my BP/W harness, a common weight system, and lost a weight. As usual some generalizations are false.