Just for laughs...

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You can't force someone to take the right class or the best class. Students will go where they go.

Did you really need to see a bunch of professional make fun of a bad sidemount video to know that it's wrong? I guess that's not a fair question since you admit you didn't get to see the video. But I'm pretty sure that unless you lived in an area under served by the Internet most would be able to.

We as instructors can beat our chest as much as we want to the masses and there will always be other instructors that don't meet our standards. We should act like professionals none the less. If you can't beat them show some class.

But this is all my opinion.
 
One day, 10 years from now, someone (who isn't even certified to dive yet) is going to dig up this thread and become a sidmount hater. All because of some old posts, and videos on the internet. ;)


Butthurt never dies!
 
What if they don't take it? As a prospective student, how do I know if they are any good if nobody will say anything and there is no effective mechanism for ensuring instructional quality?

Maybe there are better ways, IDK. But as a consumer I do not generally feel very well served by the standards I see kept. The current lack of policing is not working IMO.

You can't force someone to take the right class or the best class. Students will go where they go.

Did you really need to see a bunch of professional make fun of a bad sidemount video to know that it's wrong? I guess that's not a fair question since you admit you didn't get to see the video. But I'm pretty sure that unless you lived in an area under served by the Internet most would be able to.

We as instructors can beat our chest as much as we want to the masses and there will always be other instructors that don't meet our standards. We should act like professionals none the less. If you can't beat them show some class.

But this is all my opinion.

From this, I can now only assume you meant talk to the students - I thought you meant talk to the instructors involved. Are you suggesting that you would not even do that? At what point do the instructors receive any feedback? Who does this serve?

FWIW, I find this troubling not only in scuba, but in most self-regulated professions.
 
I have offered my opinions to other instructors or some constructive criticism. No matter how bad I think they are I don't publicly bash or try to humiliate them onto the right path.

And one can only try their best when it comes to telling a student that their training was subpar. Some may come to the realization on their own, but no one will listen to you when all you do is tell them how they got ripped off no matter how good your intentions.

The old saying is it's easier to fool someone rather than to convince them they have been fooled.

Like I said more than enough times in this tread. I feel there is a right and wrong way to go about stating your opinion on the talent of others. I'll do it my way and keep whatever moral high ground I can get.

Spend the time, develop the skills and talent and students and people will recognize what things should and shouldn't look like.
 
I have offered my opinions to other instructors or some constructive criticism. No matter how bad I think they are I don't publicly bash or try to humiliate them onto the right path.

And one can only try their best when it comes to telling a student that their training was subpar. Some may come to the realization on their own, but no one will listen to you when all you do is tell them how they got ripped off no matter how good your intentions.

The old saying is it's easier to fool someone rather than to convince them they have been fooled.

Like I said more than enough times in this tread. I feel there is a right and wrong way to go about stating your opinion on the talent of others. I'll do it my way and keep whatever moral high ground I can get.

Spend the time, develop the skills and talent and students and people will recognize what things should and shouldn't look like.

Fair 'nuff.
 
What if they don't take it?

The comments (highlighted) in the FB photo shared in Post #29 seem to indicate that response had occurred - which is possibly one reason why so many chose to make their opinions known about the quality of the training shown in the video.

In that respect, the negative comments, sharing of the video etc... served a purpose in communicating a lack of support for, or objection to, the training philosophies being demonstrated by those concerned. It is a form of protest.

History shows us that positive change occurs when people, in sufficient volume, protest against what they disagree with.

As a prospective student, how do I know if they are any good if nobody will say anything and there is no effective mechanism for ensuring instructional quality?

Maybe there are better ways, IDK. But as a consumer I do not generally feel very well served by the standards I see kept. The current lack of policing is not working IMO.

Sidemount diving is going through it's introductory period in the mainstream market. Many agencies have identified it as a potentially lucrative source of income; as an emerging market in a relatively stagnant and/or contracting industry. This, in turn, has led to attempts to proliferate the market with a vast influx of instructors, instructor-trainers etc. That desire to claim market share often conflicts with quality management.

Sidemount is very new in the mainstream. As such, no global community consensus has been formed to define baseline standards. That consensus is solidifying slowly, but is still generally limited to niche groups of passionate sidemount divers. It is not sufficiently widespread to prevent gross abuse through ignorance or willful manipulation by some minorities who just want to make a fast buck. Quite simply, you can do 'wrong' and excuse it, because no consensus exists to define the outline of what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'.

People who are motivated by a 'fast buck' don't care about "constructive criticism". Giving such criticism relies on the assumption that they care about what they are doing. It's a nice a fantasy to believe that every dive professional cares about what they do. Sadly, some just care about the money, at the expense of all else. Some are too ego driven to accept that they need to seek knowledge from outside their own sphere - that they are not the font of all knowledge.. that they can't simply 'make it up as they go along'. If these people in the video... the top echelon of an agency... cared, then they would have done some research, taken some courses, established some best practices. They didn't. That was a conscious decision on their behalf. Greed, impatience and ego won out.

We saw similar development of broad community consensus in cave diving, technical diving, then recreational BP&W diving. We'll see it also as CCR becomes more mainstream, especially at 'recreational' levels. Eventually, the community/industry always formulates a broad majority consensus on approach and standards. It is a natural evolution - and everything we do as scuba divers, everything we take for granted as the 'standardized' norm, at whatever level of training, is a product of that process.

The development of consensus might be seen as a 'narrowing road'. The parameters of 'right' and 'wrong' becoming more defined over time. What was acceptable 1 year before, can become unacceptable by consensus... until a status-quo is achieved. Some continue to tighten their parameters (i.e. 'Doing It Right'), whilst others accept a more loose definition... but all fall within the same broad community consensus.

What we saw with the response to this particular video is a tightening of the parameters in community consensus. The training philosophies, quality and approach to sidemount diving being demonstrated fell significantly outside the community consensus. There was a protest. Those responsible for the making the video were ignorant of that fact. They are ignorant no longer - they learned a lesson about the developing community consensus.... as have third-party observers.

The people who made that video were trying to imprint their own, minority, parameters on sidemount diving. They were exceptionally loose and sloppy parameters. That suited them, because they did not have the knowledge necessary to effect a tighter, more qualitative, approach... but they wanted to cash-in on the market right now. They didn't have the patience, or motivation, to gain that knowledge and those skills before starting off. They tried/are trying to excuse that failing under the guise of 'sidemount is whatever you want it to be'. That's based on the decades of evolutionary, 'DIY' pioneering sidemount, when people built their own rigs for specific purposes.. when nothing was sold commercially. That excuse making was disingenuous at best. The acceptable parameters for sidemount diving have evolved way beyond those early days. Even if they hadn't, there never was sidemount that was sloppy through laziness and lack of knowledge... of using unrestrained BP&W, of having tanks hang 8" below the torso, of hose configuration like a bowl of spaghetti... Not ever. That's an insult to the pioneers.

For many in the sidemount community, that attitude and behavior was simply not acceptable or tolerable. The results speak for themselves.

We define our own community. We do so through expressing our opinions and through protest. It is human nature and applies to all things.

To use an corny cliché: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

There will be tantrums and tears, I am sure. We are seeing them already. But hey, people got upset when they were told that thinking the world was flat was wrong.. or that owning slaves was wrong... or that apartheid was wrong... The people who raised those issues, who protested for change, were branded as 'trouble-makers'... as ''short-sighted, as 'rude', as 'ignorant', as 'a minority', as 'disruptive'... maybe even the sweet emotional blackmail of "as unprofessional" etc etc etc.

Sidemount is new. It is 'unformed'. It is evolving daily. We, the community, have the luxury of defining how it will evolve; the broad principles, the accepted practices... and, most importantly, the standards. Some may choose not to become involved in that process... to view from the sidelines and see how things shape. That, to me, seems like a wasted opportunity... or an abdication of responsibility to the community and future generations of sidemount divers.

It's a lot easier to get things right in the first place, than have to fix problems that we have allowed to become ingrained and widespread. With sidemount diving, we have the unique opportunity to get things right from the offset. With conventional scuba training, we'll probably never fix the problems that exist. It's insurmountable. It is my belief that we should do our utmost to prevent the problems inherent with conventional scuba from spreading to sidemount like an insidious cancer.
 
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I did not see the video before it was removed, but from the photo in the FB cutout I seem to recognize my own instructor :shocked2:
(or one of them to be more precise, I liked taking classes without certification for a while after the first one)

That makes me think I know/knew the video and all the people in it and I feel slightly compelled to answer to that :no:

Even if f I am mistaken, than let me remind you anyway that there are only a few competent sidemount instructors in Germany now, and next to none could be found a year ago - we have to take what we can get.
Most people in my country believe they are not 'allowed' to try something without a certification, so without those 'low-level classes' the sidemount-virus would never have reached us.
I know several fellow sidemounters here who have self taught from a basic training like that to quite impressive skill levels.

From what I know, the video the photo is from was made to remember the instructors own first experiences with sidemount at an indoor location in Europe.
They where among the first to try this in Germany (OW-Sidemount) and developed their course month after the video from personal experience and based in part on ideas from Steve (B. and M.) Videos and Pictures.

The video was made late 2010 / early 2011 - so it is quite old, actually - you should expect them to have gained some experience since.

They where selling Hollis Equipment (SMS100, the only 'legal/CE-certified' system in Germany than), and modified blueH-Wings when I took the course in my Razor2 (which took some amount of sweet-talking :rofl3:).
It was just a Sidemount Essentials and orientation class and they did an excellent job, compared to some other courses I took part in later (my instructor was wearing the same wing he is wearing in the FB pic, and it was adequate for the 'low level' OW-Sidemount they where teaching).

Of course I took the first real gosidemount essentials class I could find afterwards, but I had to wait a long time for HP to travel through Germany - seriously, without those guys I could never have made it. :crafty:

I would never dare to criticize you DevonDiver, but they did not deserve to be judged by a 'funny video' they took on their first day of training (they had it coming for years though).
And I actually liked watching it sometimes, reminds me of how much things have changed here, but now I will never get that chance again. :shakehead:

I share the dislike of bad instruction, but this is/was not a good example, as I hope to have pointed out without angering anyone.
 
I can't judge on how they may, or may not, have progressed. They chose to publish the video now.

Using an unrestrained backplate/wing, with the cylinders hung (stage-mounted) from bolt-snaps dangling well below the diver, yoke-valve regulators with hoses erupting from all angles... isn't sidemount, by any current definition. It isn't even close to the 'best practices' which have generally been agreed upon by the majority of agencies that now offer this training.

On the Youtube page, one of the instructors (the 'top guy') claimed "we were using butt-plates, so it WAS sidemount". Well, a butt-plate doesn't make sidemount diving.. any more than a hip D-ring makes technical diving. You get my drift?

What we saw in that video was quite a mess, to put it lightly. It showed no evidence of any attempt to research best practices or common configuration trends. There is (and was) a plethora of beneficial resources available for free online that would have eliminated the abysmal scenes from that video. One can only wonder why those resources were not utilized and/or put into effect?

Teaching yourself is fine. It's a slow process and entails considerably more 'trial and error' than you might avoid with getting some decent training from a credible source.You need to base that self-training on the resources that are available however. It's inefficient to 'reinvent the wheel', when so much good work has already been achieved in the community. I understand that sidemount instructors may not be plentiful in Germany. Some of us are willing to travel, or invite guest instructors, to start new training with a solid foundation. Weak foundations domino down the entire chain of tuition...and once started, become increasingly hard to correct.

That said, offering training to others... when you, yourself, are still stumbling through the difficult process of slowly learning from your own mistakes..and your own understanding is far from resolved, is arguably quite unethical.

I was told that the video was a sidemount instructor-trainer qualification course, held by the agency head. If so, that is very different from a 'first experience' (try dive?). If it were not a qualification course... and if it were known to be very 'backwards' and unrepresentative of the training now given, then a disclaimer to that effect would have been profoundly beneficial in the video. As it stood, a casual viewer of the video might easily interpret that the video was representative of the training given by those instructors/that agency in sidemount diving techniques and configuration. They may feel that this fubar video represented sidemount diving... and to be honest, it'd scare most interested divers away from ever inquiring about a sidemount course....ever. Many, many people did make that interpretation upon viewing the video - and nothing was subsequently communicated by those concerned to alleviate those justified concerns. We were told "this IS sidemount" according to that agency.
 
If I am not mistaken the video is really that old, the FB screenshot certainly is - I am sure I know that Wing and Background (and I have several pics from the same location).

What I wanted to point out is that the video (if it is the one I am thinking of) was made 'for fun', not for education or to stand up to criticism.

You have to understand the situation in Germany now:
We do not have experienced sidemount instructors!
A few are emerging, but that should contradict calling them 'experienced', yet.

I get your drift, I have to admit it is horrifying to see some of the 'typical monkey diving' videos (some instructors even prefer the name 'monkey diving' in my area), but believe me, you can find some videos that make this one look harmless - reality is much worse sometimes.

Diving here is a very conservative thing. Two years ago I expected this to take much longer.
And most aggravating of all is that most people do not try out equipment without their instructor forcing them to - much less a new way of diving in itself.
I had very some frightening discussions when I started trying this out on my own, but within 12 month nobody was surprised anymore and people started to get interested themselves - thanks to people like them.

Training here is (mostly) sub-standard, I have to admit, but some people are working on that at the moment - and those people are probably (also) among them.

Just give 'us' some time.
Nobody here would be interested in sidemount at all without those 'early adopters from tho local area'.
And I assume that some divers from Germany even have found their way to your classes, or they will.
Those that already travel to Mexiko anyway will be less interested in getting more training anywhere else.
Anyone who tries sidemount will soon recognize the instructors who have anything to teach himself.
 
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Something tells me Andy Davis will continue to criticize, post videos, and mock divers despite Razorista clearing the air on one of many videos he has posted or viewed on numerous websites. He's a guy with ALL the answers. Look at the post above...I personally would be eating crow if I were him but he continues to talk s**t. He also believes if the community humiliates these people enough that they will go out and get better instruction. He calls it a "protest". Read post #36...I mean is this guy for real???!! Who is he to define what sidemount is or what it should be? It's supposed to be fun first and foremost. If I wasn't up to someone's par with that they thought sidemount should look like, God forbid I wouldn't want some industry "professional" posting a video of myself and labeling it "funny to watch" or whatever.

People with glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Look at HIS videos!
 

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