Ripped off for my AOW training

[RJP]

Wow, did this conversation veer off topic

 

[victorzamora]

I think there are a few takeaways here.

-As a manager AND instructor, he's definitely not hurting too badly in terms of cash....nor is he swimming in cash.
-VERY few people make truly good money in scuba diving, and they're often manufacturers.
-Any course is ABSOLUTELY no more than the instructor AND student allow it to be.
-The lower quality of courses common to rec diving is due to people (frequently) not wanting to put the time/money/effort into properly learning
-It is VERY common for AOW classes to suck
-Semantics and grammar aside, AOW is a poor name for the course. Technically, it theoretically "Advances" you from boring OW to AOW.....but the card doesn't mean you have the knowledge.
-AOW doesn't mean "advanced" diver, but it is commonly referred to as such....mostly used for marketing

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Thank you.
It IS very common.

parlance
ˈpɑːl(&#601ns/
noun
noun: parlance
1.
a particular way of speaking or using words, especially a way common to those with a particular job or interest.

Yes, far to often...and typically by those selling/teaching the course. For some, I expect it is cynical marketing (through manipulating false expectations), for others it is merely a case of the blind leading the blind... and unthinking regurgitation of what they themselves had learned/heard.

Here's an example:

Girl, 12, wins diving accolade - Littlehampton Gazette

"The spokesman said: "Louise is now an advanced PADI diver...."

 

[TONY CHANEY]

I was not going to post on this but felt a need to do so. When I took my AWO classes I was given the choice to pick and decided upon the classes I wanted to do. So I wanted to be a better diver so I picked Drysuit, Nitrox, Deep and Night. We did all of them and I learned alot and still refer back to my training even today. Post certification as a Dive Master, I assisted my instructor with AWO classes. Some of our students were going back to the US rather soon and wanted the cert so we could and would combine a couple of the classes together. (Things might have changed since 2000).
So my questions to the OP are: 1) Did you get to choose which classes you wanted to take? 2) Wre you in a hurry to get the cert? 3) What did you really think you were going to get with Fish ID that you thought that the class would make you an Advance Open Water Diver?
OTOH, I cannot stand that taking a student down to only 60' and back to the surface qualifies the dive as a deep diver! Thank God my instructor took the time to do the math test prior to the dive and then again at depth...below 90'! He also did the air in a closed contained at the surface and then again at depth as well as the color changes at depth.

 

[scubadada]

No, to be expected of an AOW thread

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

All you really got for your $400 was a pass to be able to get on some boats and maybe a few other diving related activities where an AOW card is required.
When I took AOW I had already done way bigger dives on my own fresh out of OW then what they had us do.
I took it because it was the natural progression thing to do.
I learned way more in my TDI advanced Nitrox and Decompression Proceedures class.

I think when I took it it was $149.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I think there are a few takeaways here.

-As a manager AND instructor, he's definitely not hurting too badly in terms of cash....nor is he swimming in cash.
-VERY few people make truly good money in scuba diving, and they're often manufacturers.
-Any course is ABSOLUTELY no more than the instructor AND student allow it to be.
-The lower quality of courses common to rec diving is due to people (frequently) not wanting to put the time/money/effort into properly learning
-It is VERY common for AOW classes to suck
-Semantics and grammar aside, AOW is a poor name for the course. Technically, it theoretically "Advances" you from boring OW to AOW.....but the card doesn't mean you have the knowledge.
-AOW doesn't mean "advanced" diver, but it is commonly referred to as such....mostly used for marketing

Thank you!

That has been a point I have been trying to make. Dive shops everywhere refer to advanced dives, and that you must be an "Advanced Diver" to sign up for those dives. That is the common language that is used.....by a majority of shop employees, Instructors and divers.
Some people ar just choosing to be intentionally obtuse about the whole thing.

It's too simple:
If you walk into a shop and ask to sign up for their advanced boat trips, they are going to tell you that you have to be an Advanced diver in order to do so.

We ALL already know what you have to do be become an "advanced diver"....using the commonly accepted parlance in the diving community.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[Lorenzoid]

This is pure BS. Several instructors have already posted on this thread that they do better. It's true that some people are lazy and choose to under perform but I do not think lazy people are the norm.

R..

Scubaboard members are not the norm. The instructors who post here are far more conscientious than any PADI instructors I have met in real life. I admit I haven't met a statistically significant sample of instructors, but I have hung around enough dive ops and had enough instructor acquaintances to have developed a belief that most AOW courses are not taught by you people.

 

[boulderjohn]

My niece is visiting my area to do an internship. I was surprised to learn she had gotten certified to dive while she was stationed in Okinawa in the Air Force. In her OW certification, she had had one pool session of a couple hours in length, followed by one OW dive to a maximum depth of 10 feet. That's it. That's all she had to do to become a certified diver.

The agency was NAUI.

So should I go off on a tirade about NAUI's terrible standards, or do I suggest that maybe the problem was with the individual instructor?

My AOW experience was quite valuable, and to this day I am very glad I had it. If I had had a different instructor, it might have totally sucked. Back then I had no idea how different the experience can be. I agree that it is a good idea to check out the instructor ahead of time, but that is not always easy to do.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

My OW class was about the duration same as sailnaked's. He had 10-15 hours of classroom instruction and some amount of pool instruction. I had 12 hours classroom, and 12 hours pool. Then the two days of "checkout dives". I think there were 4 checkout dives, and a snorkel "dive" in those two days. For an 8 student class with one paid instructor and two unpaid assistants the instructor made $116 an hour. I wish I made $116/hr. If he had doubled the class length he'd still be making a killing at $58/hr My daughter's class was just over half that from a different shop due to a groupon deal (16 hours total combined pool+classroom). That poor instructor is only bringing in $95/hr. His kids might have a terrible Christmas as a result. AOW class for me was 2h in the classroom counting the time I spent taking the test. Granted it was a much cheaper class and there were only two students. He made $175/hr.

I also know from talking to them that the instructors get the tuition. The shop makes money on books, and gear sales. At least, that's what the instructor who did my OW told me. It's also why students here have to pay with cash or check for tuition rather than debit card like I used to pay for books and gear.

I'm not really as bitter about it as I just came across. My point in this is; don't blame the students. The instructors are making out like bandits on instruction, it's all on them in my view. Instructors (at least the ones in my local shops) are paid handsomely for a service they didn't even have to go to medical or law school to be trained for. The students did their part when they signed up, paid for, and attended the classes.

So your OW class was $580 per person right? And the instructor pocketed all that? He did not have to pay insurance, maintain his gear, take time away from family, spend money on gas, food, or other expenses. I guess he also did not spend thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of dollars and uncounted hours getting his instructor cert? (unless he went through a puppy mill). The information and knowledge in his head just magically put itself there?

RJP beat me to some of this stuff but it really irks me when this stuff gets said. Now not paying his assistants was just plain ignorant if indeed he did not. And managing and overseeing 8 people plus two assistants in the water is not stressful and worthy of compensation?

Now what else did he do during this time? How many other classes did he teach? How much is his mortgage and other living expenses there? Maybe he set his rates to account for that as any good business man would do?

As for your AOW class I guess that was what for five dives over two days plus the two hours (pretty crappy by my standards in the classroom part) in the classroom. Let's see now. That'd be say 2 hours plus 6 hours the first day for three dives and 4 hours the next for two = 14 hours x, what did you say, 175 an hour is 2450 for an AOW class split between two people. HOLY CRAP I AM WAY TOO CHEAP FOR MY 24 HOUR AOW CLASS AT 375 A PERSON! Need to change that stuff up pronto!

My AOW class is 375 per person plus expenses if I have to travel and do an overnight stay. For me to do private AOW at Dutch or Gilboa it's going to cost the student around 550.00. And they will get their money's worth. That is IF they even qualify to start the class. 99% of new OW divers will not without serious remediation. No one just out of an OW class will get in. Even my own students need to get some dives in first before I'll allow them in. And what I really want is for them to do Rescue first. Then Advanced. No diver really needs Advanced in my opinion. It's a want to do. Everyone should have Rescue. That should be a must.