Ripped off for my AOW training

[Diver0001]

You have not been "ripped off" because what you describe is typical of the content of an AOW course

This is pure BS. Several instructors have already posted on this thread that they do better. It's true that some people are lazy and choose to under perform but I do not think lazy people are the norm.

R..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scubadada]

Now try "equipment specialist". I wish I spent the money on lottery tickets instead. Or a few regulator manuals...

My son and I took an Equipment Specialist class at a LDS in 2004. We spent all day in the shop, participated in many disassembly/assembly exercises and learned quite a lot about scuba equipment. I, and others, have benefited on numerous occasions when I was able to perform minor repairs or adjustments on the spot. Again, I guess it's the instructor, not the course.

---------- Post added November 26th, 2013 at 02:56 PM ----------

Did mine in 2006 and had to calculate a series of repetitive dives - at depth - using tables. (I was hoping to have to open a combination lock or similar.) At the time I was deathly afraid of failing the course, not realizing that the purpose was to demonstrate narcosis rather than test my ability to overcome it.

Ironically, I took AOW at a resort in Hawaii as logged dives #5-10. Did this because I didn't have a buddy, and the price of the course was only about $10 more than the a la carte prices for doing 5 dives (including boat charter costs) with a hired DM/guide. Didn't expect to learn anything, but lo and behold the instructor I had actually cared enough to work with me on navigation, bouyancy, propulsion, gear configuration, etc. He also spent roughly an hour on academics/discussion/briefing for each of the five dives.

I ended up with a card AND better skills at the end of the course - go figure!

I'm with RJP. I did AOW on Grand Cayman in 2004. Did nav, deep, wreck, PPB, and DPV. I started with more dives but also came away with new knowledge and skills. That was 700 dives ago and I will always remember it as a positive experience. I'm sorry so many have had a bad experience with AOWD

 

[kelemvor]

While it's fashionable to blame PADI for the "dumbing down" of OW and the proliferation of "specialty" classes, in reality, you can blame the consumers (students) for demanding shorter classes.

My OW class was about the duration same as sailnaked's. He had 10-15 hours of classroom instruction and some amount of pool instruction. I had 12 hours classroom, and 12 hours pool. Then the two days of "checkout dives". I think there were 4 checkout dives, and a snorkel "dive" in those two days. For an 8 student class with one paid instructor and two unpaid assistants the instructor made $116 an hour. I wish I made $116/hr. If he had doubled the class length he'd still be making a killing at $58/hr My daughter's class was just over half that from a different shop due to a groupon deal (16 hours total combined pool+classroom). That poor instructor is only bringing in $95/hr. His kids might have a terrible Christmas as a result. AOW class for me was 2h in the classroom counting the time I spent taking the test. Granted it was a much cheaper class and there were only two students. He made $175/hr.

I also know from talking to them that the instructors get the tuition. The shop makes money on books, and gear sales. At least, that's what the instructor who did my OW told me. It's also why students here have to pay with cash or check for tuition rather than debit card like I used to pay for books and gear.

I'm not really as bitter about it as I just came across. My point in this is; don't blame the students. The instructors are making out like bandits on instruction, it's all on them in my view. Instructors (at least the ones in my local shops) are paid handsomely for a service they didn't even have to go to medical or law school to be trained for. The students did their part when they signed up, paid for, and attended the classes.

 

[RJP]

I had 12 hours classroom, and 12 hours pool. Then the two days of "checkout dives". I think there were 4 checkout dives, and a snorkel "dive" in those two days. For an 8 student class with one paid instructor and two unpaid assistants the instructor made $116 an hour.

So rough math, it would seem that you paid about $580 for an OW class (12hrs pool + 12hrs academics +2 days of OW dives @8hrs each = 40hrs x $116/hr divided by 8 students) give or take? This assumes the instructor spent no other time for your class other than the time spent in your presence.

Seems pretty steep...

But, let's assume your math is right and the instructor did collect $116/hr from the students...

- Did the instructor own the shop? If not did the shop got some (most) of the money?
- Does the instructor/shop pay rent for their location?
- Does the instructor/shop pay to rent a pool?
- If they own the pool, does it cost them money to maintain?
- Does the shop have any other equipment/materials/etc used for the class? (Compressor, tanks, etc?)
- Do they pay insurance?
- Do they pay annual fees to an agency?
- Did the money you paid include cost for materials?
- Did the money you paid include the cost of processing your card?
- Anything else included in your cost besides money that went directly to your instructor?

After you answer all those questions... did the instructor actually "bring in" $116/hr? Because that's highly unlikely...

My point in this is... the instructors are making out like bandits on instruction, it's all on them in my view. Instructors (at least the ones in my local shops) are paid handsomely for a service they didn't even have to go to medical or law school to be trained for.

That has to be the single funniest - and off-the-mark - thing I've ever read on SB.

OK, the poster who disputed the existence of adiabatic heating/cooling was funnier... but no-less ill-informed, when you consider that reality disputes the very premise of your theory.

 

[flots am]

My OW class was about the duration same as sailnaked's. He had 10-15 hours of classroom instruction and some amount of pool instruction. I had 12 hours classroom, and 12 hours pool. Then the two days of "checkout dives". I think there were 4 checkout dives, and a snorkel "dive" in those two days. For an 8 student class with one paid instructor and two unpaid assistants the instructor made $116 an hour. I wish I made $116/hr. If he had doubled the class length he'd still be making a killing at $58/hr My daughter's class was just over half that from a different shop due to a groupon deal (16 hours total combined pool+classroom). That poor instructor is only bringing in $95/hr. His kids might have a terrible Christmas as a result. AOW class for me was 2h in the classroom counting the time I spent taking the test. Granted it was a much cheaper class and there were only two students. He made $175/hr.

You should become an instructor, then you could make $175/hour too.

Then come back and let me know how you do it.

I teach all year (more or less) and I'm not entirely certain that what I get out of it actually covers the cost of gear and training and insurance and transportation to class and the dive sites.

flots

 

[nimoh]

keep in mind that $116/hr includes no benefits.

In my experience, people tend to forget about their benefits package from their employer when thinking about their own hourly wage. Quite often the benefits package is worth more than the salary.

 

[kelemvor]

I'd agree if either instructor did it as their only source of income it might not be "that great". In both cases the instructors are the general manager of very successful dive shops in my area. They're pulling in a salary for managing that dive shop. In at least one case, the instructor told me he got the tuition rather than the shop. Does he pay the shop for the privilege of being the manager and teaching there? I doubt it. The shop also provides the gear, which they then sell every year at a significant discount. Still a lot more than you'd pay for used gear online.

Also, in both cases the OW checkout dives were a separate fee.

I'm sorry I took this slightly off topic, but here's some responses:

Did the instructor own the shop? If not did the shop got some (most) of the money? - NO, the instructor told me he got the tuition money. This was in a later conversation about why tuition had to be paid by cash/check rather than with my debit card.

Does the instructor/shop pay rent for their location? Probably not beyond what the shop is paying already for being a retail store.

- Does the instructor/shop pay to rent a pool? No, the pool is part of the shops in my area. Whatever the store pays for rent or mortgage (both shops have been around since before I was born, so it's probably just taxes/expenses).

- If they own the pool, does it cost them money to maintain? Sure

- Does the shop have any other equipment/materials/etc used for the class? (Compressor, tanks, etc?) In both cases, the shops replace all the gear annually and sell the class gear. It's at a rate cheaper than the new price, but high enough for me to assume they're not taking a loss on any of it. i.e. Over 50% of the full retail price. Granted they also have the cost of paying some tech a few bucks an hour to service the gear before sale.

- Do they pay insurance? Yes, he did mention that in a conversation once but I can't for the life of me remember how much.

- Do they pay annual fees to an agency? Yes, My NAUI instructor (according to the naui website) is paying a whopping $145/yr

- Did the money you paid include cost for materials? No, in both cases training materials were not included in the course cost.

- Did the money you paid include the cost of processing your card? Yes. I've no idea if that cost is baked into his fee or the fee for the "materials". The only fee for cards that I know of for sure is the DAN cards which run $5 each.

- Anything else included in your cost besides money that went directly to your instructor? Dunno. Neither instructor really wrote the materials, they used that provided by the respective agency (and purchased separately by the students). I'm sure they had to buy gas to get to work, just like everyone else in the world. They also had to get the necessary education to teach, just like every other teacher in the world.

The way I add it up, instructor 1 is bringing in about $22k for "side work" (aka instruction) that they do after their full time job as a retail store manager. The median expected salary for a typical Retail Store Manager in the United States is $52,987. So I'm guessing they're making a combined total of at least $75k/yr. Probably more since both stores in question are absolutely killing it, and have been for a very long time. Now, that side work figure is allows for about a month of no classes, and ONLY figures in OW classes year round that are done here. It doesn't even account for other classes.

Back to my original point again. For the money that is paid for a class, the instructor has no excuse for providing anything other than a good education on the topic at hand.

 

[spc751]

Yeah, because everybody does math problems in their head when they're diving.

Things like this ... puzzles ... writing your name backward ... they're useful I suppose for demonstrating to someone that they're narc'd. On the other hand, it should go without saying that at those depths you're going to be narc'd. Why not have them do something they might ever actually need at depth outside of class ... like, an OOA drill? It brings home some important concepts ... narcosis (a) affects your ability to recognize a problem exists, and (b) affects your ability to decide what to do about it, and (c) affects your ability to react once you're done deciding ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Do you really think that it is worse for a padi instructor to have me do a math test at 95 feet than it is for an ssi instructor to qualify me to dive to 100 feet even though I had never been deeper than 60 feet in his class?

If you want more details on the padi aow course it also included ooa drills, deploying smb, frog kick, reverse kick, helicopter turn.

I thought it was a very good course but the only thing I have to compare to is SSI.

 

[RJP]

So I'm guessing they're making a combined total of at least $75k/yr.

Assuming they work ~50hrs a week 48 weeks a year that comes down to $31.25/hr, less taxes, benefits, out of pocket costs, insurance, agency fees, etc.

That would barely cover maintenance on their Ferraris...

 

[scubadada]

Wow, did this conversation veer off topic