The benefit of specialties

[tracydr]

I've found its the instructor that makes the course. I really got a lot out of AOW,nitrox, drysuit and Rescue. DM was excellent. I plan to take GUE Fundies, maybe GUE drysuit and some tech classes. Also a sidemount class. If you want to take a drysuit class, for the cost, I'd recommend the GUE class or UTD class over the other agency classes. From most instructors it's about the same cost but a much better course, really covering the high points of weighting, buoyancy and use of the drysuit. That's why I'm considering taking it, even though I already have the the PADI card.
Yes, I believe some specialties are well worth the money and time to take.

 

[boulderjohn]

... Like others have pointed out, this is format is done with every agency and the problems are also with every agency and sorry Jim, but at every level, yes, even Tec! Just because someone has a Tec Instructor rating doesn't mean that you will get a better class!

Quality Training is worth it's weight in gold! Find a good/quality instructor and the rewards will be huge!

A couple of friends and I who have had technical training have talked about a related topic. We have all seen technical instructors who have the philosophy that if one is taking advanced training, then the instructional methods used at lower levels of training are not necessary. They can skip all those instructional steps and cut right to the chase. I heard one instructor say something along the lines of "In these classes we don't hold your hand the way they do in basic classes." What did he mean by that? It meant he didn't give much verbal instruction when initiating a new skill, and he would frequently skip demonstrations and practice, going right to evaluation. When the student failed at the skill, that would be followed the obligatory "no hand-holding" verbal abuse.

As one true example I witnessed, two divers were told that on the next OW dive, they would demonstrate their ability to pass stage bottles to each other, using AL 80s carried on their left sides. They were not told how to do it. They were not given a demonstration. They were not given time to practice. Under water, they were directed to the location for the exercise, an extremely tight area with lots of silt, and they knew that they had better not stir up any silt. The instructor decided that this was too easy, so he put one of them out of gas before the exercise, so they had to do the bottle pass while sharing air. He filmed it, and the later film study focused on the receiving diver struggling to clip off a second AL 80 under has arm while not stirring up silt and while tethered to the other diver by air sharing. The instructor found the struggles quite amusing. The students failed, and it was up to them to do whatever it took to get that skill mastered before the next time they tried it on an open water dive. That's what not holding a student's hands meant.

If the instructor had been a (scoff! scoff!) hand holder, the exercise would have been done first with easier-to-handle AL 40s after a thorough explanation, a demonstration, and practice in a benign environment. As skill improved, more and more complications would have been added. That is the kind of "hand holding" required in recreational classes, and it is the kind of hand holding required by authorized specialty classes.

An instructor with tech experience is likely to have more knowledge and better skills than one who does not, but that does not make that person a better instructor. The principles of quality education are well known, and they apply at all levels of instruction.

 

[iluvtheocean]

John, if i was the student in your example -- i would have a serious discussion with the instructor about what constitutes instruction and whether or not i should demand a refund or proper instruction. Whether it's diving or taking a course at the community college - you want to get the instruction you paid for.
holding the students hand in scuba i would equate to helping them on with their wetsuit & putting the defogger in their mask, etc... (only times i can possibly see this is with wounded warriors or something similar and even that would only be by request of the diver.)
I agree that in a tech course you shouldn't have to teach them buoyancy etc... but you do have to teach the skills you are trying to impart.

 

[ComputerX]

As one true example I witnessed...

That sounds like my Open Water class. We were all too scared of the instructor to ask questions. There was another instructor in the pool with us doing a brush-up for someone . We were so jealous. At least we learned a little by eavesdropping on the other guy.

He is a PADI Course Director and a DIR diver. The other instructors rave about his knowledge and ability, but he really shouldn't have been teaching newbies.

 

[spc751]

I do not know if this is still being offered but some SSI shops in Playa del Carmen used to offer a SSI Yucatan Cenote Diver Specialty course and could be used towards SSI Master Diver. Personal I would prefer to take a cavern diver course.


SSI Yucatan Cenote Diver Specialty

This world unique SSI Specialty is only available in very few, selected dive centers in the Riviera Maya, Mexico.
There is no comparable place to this fresh water filled cavern system with amazing visibilities. You will discover the daylight zone which is covered by stalactites and stalagmites that tell us about its geological history…
This fun filled one day course gives you a profound introduction to the history and geology of the famous Cenotes of the Yucatan as well as their important role in the ancient Maya culture and teaches you how to dive them safely under the supervision of your SSI instructor, who has been a full cave diver for many years.
Please reserve your course in advance.​

Price: $180 US per person (includes unique SSI c-card)

Price includes all personal equipment, even wet suit and underwater light. Teaching materials and SSI Yucatan Cenote Diver Specialty c-card are included in the price.
​

 

[iluvtheocean]

That sounds like my Open Water class. We were all too scared of the instructor to ask questions. There was another instructor in the pool with us doing a brush-up for someone . We were so jealous. At least we learned a little by eavesdropping on the other guy.

He is a PADI Course Director and a DIR diver. The other instructors rave about his knowledge and ability, but he really shouldn't have been teaching newbies.

never be afraid to ask questions a dumb question may receive a wisecrack reply....but if an instructor doesn't get any questions, he or she necessarily may assume that you understand the material being presented or the directions. whether they can answer it right then or after class depends on the question and what's going on.


There is a PADI Cenote Diver Specialty as well --- from the description i'd say Cavern Diver would be better too...
PADI Specialties - Cenote Diver | Scuba Emporium, Chicago, Illinois, Midwest Instructor Training & Dive Equipment Leader

This goes back to the OP's question --- a specialty may be available and might be fun to collect the card - but a different course might better suit your needs -- do your research (on here, talk to other divers, google)

I like the shop i go to -- the instructors are good & friendly & are willing to dive with you outside of a instructional setting. If you are going to buddy up with a former student, wouldn't you be ashamed and/or fearful if you didn't give them adequate instruction? If they are a poor diver due to your instruction, it reflects bad on you and could jeopardize your life in an emergency situation.

 

[victorzamora]

this is format is done with every agency and the problems are also with every agency and sorry Jim, but at every level, yes, even Tec! Just because someone has a Tec Instructor rating doesn't mean that you will get a better class!

This could not ring more true for me. I took several classes from a Tec instructor that added nothing to my skills. I even took a Tec class and got absolutely no good habits, skills, or abilities. I didn't get a card, nor would I have even come close to deserving one. Worse than that, it was taught in a dangerous manner.

John's example of an instructor simply assuming you can complete the minimum requirements and move on was my experience. I had completely lost faith in all Tec diving until I found another instructor that truly INSTRUCTED. It was truly incredible how much you grow as a diver with good feedback.

 

[TSandM]

There are several reasons to take specialty classes. One is that you need the card for something -- Nitrox is an example, as is Deep (as some operators require it for certain dives). In that case, the only way to get what you need is to take the class and get the card. You still have a choice of classes and agencies from which to take a class. Some agencies reduce instructor variation by very tight quality control; others have much higher instructor numbers, and therefore more variation.

The second reason is because you want to acquire a certain set of skills. If you look at the class outlines for a lot of the PADI specialties, there is a lot of good information in them. It is, however, sadly seldom all taught. You need an instructor who likes to teach that class and is motivated to bring value to it, to get everything out of the class that is there to be had. This is where instructor interviews are really important. You need to know if the instructor you're considering likes this particular class, teaches it very often, or has a dedication to offering good value in his classes.

The third reason to take specialties is simply to get a chance to spend time in the water with an instructor, and get some feedback on your general diving. Signing up for a class is an easy way to do this, whereas doing one-on-one work with an instructor can be more difficult to arrange and more expensive.

One of the values of a forum like ScubaBoard is the ability to go on and ask for recommendations for good instructors. If you describe what you want from a class, somebody in the area where you want to take it probably has an instructor to suggest, who will meet your needs.

 

[Wayne at DiveSeekers]

BoulderJohn - getting a little off course (but I opened the door...LOL) to me that is a great example of a bad instructor. When learning new skills on a tec level, all core skills should be done (neutrally buoyant) shallow before deeper and students should get briefed then the instructor should give a skill demonstration so that the students can see how its done and has tried it once and received feedback (what was done right/wrong and how to fix it). Then student can go and practice , once skills are mastered (so student thinks) then they can go for evaluation and attempt to complete dives. Task loading, solution thinking and repetition of skills becomes more and more every dive after that and depth increases as well. Again, I have seen a lot of poor tec instructor (can't do skills neutrally buoyant, can't communicat with students, just signing off on divers) out there, so Tec Instructor should not have any more weight, still need to interview or do a dive with the person.

I personally teach core tec skills (Buoyancy, trim, propulsion, control, A/S) on the Recreational level from the ground up (OW - PPB - Drysuit - AOW an on). With this approach divers will have the foundation for whatever path they take in SCUBA (photography, wreck, tec, rebreather etc...). With this approach, specialties do mean something and with the foundation of core skills, stundents can focus on learning new skills, techniques, muscle memory etc., so they will get a lot out of the class. When we don't have the Control (buoyancy, trim, propulsion) the learning curve is a lot greater.

Here's what we see locally. Besides classes being taught with a lot of hand holding and not being neutrally buoyant, the other problem I find is that the instructors do not know how to structure the programs. I've seen multiple times where an AOW class does Navigation segment all on a platform (surface swim out, descends, skills, ascends, surface swim back). Then, same approach (surface swim out, descends, skills, ascends, surface swim back) for the Deep Dive but now on an attraction. Don't understand approach but maybe its environment (quarry) related where instructors do these dives because they can, but what is this doing for anyone? How about putting a full dive together (rather then a short 25 minutes) that encompasses all the skills that you need into one complete dive. Never seen this approach from a boat!

 

[boulderjohn]

Here's what we see locally. Besides classes being taught with a lot of hand holding and not being neutrally buoyant, the other problem I find is that the instructors do not know how to structure the programs. I've seen multiple times where an AOW class does Navigation segment all on a platform (surface swim out, descends, skills, ascends, surface swim back). Then, same approach (surface swim out, descends, skills, ascends, surface swim back) for the Deep Dive but now on an attraction. Don't understand approach but maybe its environment (quarry) related where instructors do these dives because they can, but what is this doing for anyone? How about putting a full dive together (rather then a short 25 minutes) that encompasses all the skills that you need into one complete dive. Never seen this approach from a boat!

I agree. If you are doing a class that requires multiple skills on multiple dives, each dive could in theory build on the dive before. As you suggest, if students have mastered compass skills on the first dive of the group, there is no reason they can't be using compass skills on the following dives.