Basic Training + Planning

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Well if your break your depth and don't check your gauges it doesn't really matter how much pre-dive work you do, it's pure Darwinism from then on in.

My experience is that people who put thought into their plan prior to entering the water are far less likely to break their plan once the dive has begun ... and those few who do are more likely to have a better understanding of how far they can "safely" push it without cutting their safety margins too thin.

People who understand the "why" behind their planning decisions are less likely to make the critical errors that lead to accidents than those who simply do things because their instructor said it's what they should do ... and are FAR less likely to just blindly follow a dive leader without understanding the limitations of their plan or their ability to safely execute it.

Diving accidents are more often the result of poor decisions than they are poor skills ... and knowledge always helps you make better decisions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
My experience is that people who put thought into their plan prior to entering the water are far less likely to break their plan once the dive has begun ...

well obviously :doh:

and those few who do are more likely to have a better understanding of how far they can "safely" push it without cutting their safety margins too thin.

Disagree. You can't safely push the limits, otherwise it wouldn't be pushing the limits. Hence if I go 10cm over a planned depth in a tech dive, it falls into Plan B, not 'oh it was only for a few seconds, it doesn't matter'

People who understand the "why" behind their planning decisions are less likely to make the critical errors that lead to accidents than those who simply do things because their instructor said it's what they should do ... and are FAR less likely to just blindly follow a dive leader without understanding the limitations of their plan or their ability to safely execute it.

Yeah, however that isn't what the PADI OW course is. Its about a rigid set of do's and don't so novices can plan and conduct their own dives safely, not re-write 'Deco for Divers' or 'Technical Diving from the Bottom Up'.

At the beginning of 'A Brief History of Time' Steven Hawking says he will try to explain the whole universe with only equation (E=MC2). One equation for the whole universe. Now if he can do that, then surely divers can safely plan dives with the knowledge given in the PADI OW course. To further their knowledge they can move on and take a variety of courses, learn to calculate SAC's, learn Rock bottom if you so desire, but it isn't needed on a day to day basis like it is claimed.


Diving accidents are more often the result of poor decisions than they are poor skills ... and knowledge always helps you make better decisions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'd agree with you. But then I remember the DAN incident report a few years back about the Rebreather diver who died in a swimming pool because he forgot to turn it on.

Sometime Darwinism is the cause.
 
Disagree. You can't safely push the limits, otherwise it wouldn't be pushing the limits. Hence if I go 10cm over a planned depth in a tech dive, it falls into Plan B, not 'oh it was only for a few seconds, it doesn't matter'

Oh good grief ... that tells me you don't understand much about why you're making a plan B in the first place.

So tell me ... how much extra decompression obligation does that 10 cm incur? In fact, how can you even tell? I've never met a gauge that accurate.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Oh good grief ... that tells me you don't understand much about why you're making a plan B in the first place.

So tell me ... how much extra decompression obligation does that 10 cm incur? In fact, how can you even tell? I've never met a gauge that accurate.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


Let's break this down shall we :)


Deco Obligation: Deco programs are based on mathematical theories applied to the human tissues as to how they on and off load gas. Some of these theories are pretty good, for example I happily use GUE's decoplanner for most technical dives. But I never forget it is a theory nothing more, it doesn't model my body or anyone elses. So if I choose to switch to a back-up plan for a minor violation then I feel that I'm doing the right thing because I'm being conservative, even if the reality of my violation is actually 1 minute extra on the final stop. I'm following the plan I made, I'm also not putting all of my faith in a maths whizz kid who's never been diving.


PADI Tables: I bought a computer shortly after my OW course, and was a computer diver right up until my Instructor course. After which I turned back to tables, not because of a problem with my computer but because I was having to dive tables in order to teach the course. Eventually I stopped using the computer altogether and only used an UWATEC bottom timer. Since then I have planned; with students, hundreds of dives based on simple RDP models. This includes the Deep Dive AOW (although I had a computer for back up). Executing a simply dive plan using only turn pressures and RDP times is simple, effective and workable. I still use it today for my work dives as an Archaeologist, I dive purely from tables and a simple ascent pressure to depths up to 30m.

SAC's have their place, but they are not an essential part of recreational diving. Personally an understanding of tides and currents is far more important where I dive, a factor I have seen discussed marginally on this forum.
 
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SAC's have their place, but they are not an essential part of recreational diving.

... so then why do so many recreational divers run out of air at depth?

I submit it happens because many instructors teach people that gas management isn't important at the recreational level ... and focus instead on how to react to running out of air, rather than how not to. Your approach sets an expectation that running out of air is an inevitable part of recreational diving. It's not ... and I'd rather teach someone to avoid the emergency altogether.

Seems like common sense ... the best emergency, after all, is the one you avoid through proper planning ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Here's another Emergency gas planning example & exercise for the OP, for a dive to the Basic Open Water Limit of 18m/60':

Emergency "Stressed" 28 litres/min SCR (Surface Consumption Rate, also referred to as SAC), with 18 meters (2.8 ATA) depth NDL, and with one minute stops every 3 meters to surface:


2.8 x 28 x 1 = 78.4
2.5 x 28 x 1 = 70
2.2 x 28 x 1 = 61.6
1.9 x 28 x 1 = 53.2
1.6 x 28 x 1 = 44.8
1.3 x 28 x 1 = 36.4
1.0 x 28 x 1 = 28


Sum Total: 372.4 litres gas needed to ascend to surface for an emergency contingency.

Divide the above total by the metric tank rating of the Scuba cylinder in use; for this example let's use the AL80 tank again which has a metric rating of 11 litres/bar. So 372/11 = approx 35 bar.

That's 35 bar to get you to the surface --to get yourself and sharing gas with an Out-of-Air Buddy you will need at least twice this amount: 35 x 2 = 70 bar. Therefore your Rock Bottom Reserve is 70 bar showing on your SPG --if there is no emergency air sharing contingency at that instant, just continue the dive but start a easy nominal ascent to the shallower depths between 5m and 9m. Finally, be at your 5m safety stop with your buddy with no less than 50 bar showing on the SPG.

Your usable gas for the dive is your starting pressure subtracted by the Rock Bottom Reserve --so 200 bar minus 70 bar equals 130 bar usable. Let's use 20 bar of this 130 to get squared away in good trim & buoyancy on the descent to 18m which leaves 110 bar usable. Now if your dive plan calls for returning to near the vicinity of your original point of entry (like a beach dive for instance), then turn the dive back around when you use half of 110 bar or 55 bar consumed.

So for a nominal dive with an SCR of 22 litres/min on a 11L (AL80) tank, your resulting pressure SCR will be 2 bar/min [22 divided-by 11 equals 2bar/min]. Your depth in meters, which converts easily to ATA (simply divide-by-10 and add 1) becomes your multiplier depth factor for your 2bar/min pressure SCR.

18 meters depth is 2.8 ATA (divide 18 by 10 and add 1 equals 2.8); your 2bar/min SCR at depth -or Depth Consumption Rate (DCR)- now becomes 5.6 bar/min. [2.8 times 2bar/min equals 5.6 bar/min]. So 10 minutes at depth 18m on an AL80 (11L/bar) tank in nominal conditions, you would expect to consume 56bar of gas (10min times 5.6 bar/min equals 56bar) and your SPG reading to show a delta down of 56bar. . .

Okay, you splash in to start the dive with 200bar and a 70bar rock bottom. You use up 20bar on descent --initial exertion, inflating your wing etc. -so you now have 180bar with 70bar rock bottom at present depth 18m, a net usable of 110bar (180 minus 70 is 110). Finning out for 10 minutes, an easy swim looking at all the cool marine life around -- you already know by the end of this 10 minute interval that you've used up 56bar (see previous paragraph above), so you decide to turn the dive. You should now know you have roughly 50bar of usable gas left before encroaching on your Rock Bottom Reserve, and realize that you must start a nominal ascent within the next 10 minute interval. Alright, so while turning back, you see a turtle and decide to chase it for a few minutes, huffing & puffing on your reg, until it dives down below your operational depth of 18m; you immediately check your SPG and it reads 70bar --bingo! Rock bottom has arrived so start ascending to the shallower depths . . .or if your Buddy just happens to blow his tank neck O-ring at that instant --you know you've got plenty of breathing gas margin for a controlled air-sharing Emergency ascent profile as described above. . .

Be aware that depending on environmental conditions and physical exertion (cold water, stiff current, long surface swim, heavy workload at depth etc), you may have to reserve a greater Rock Bottom Reserve --perhaps as high or even over 100 bar on the 11L/AL80 tank to be conservative. (Even better just abort the dive, wait another day or find another easier site to dive!)
:wink:

____
Notes for American Divers using US Imperial Units:
Stressed SCR of 28 litres/min is equivalent to 1 cuft/min;
Nominal SCR of 22 litres/min is approx 0.75 cuft/min.
2 bar/min is same as 29psi/min;
5.6 bar/min is 81psi/min

Easy imperial US/metric conversions for depth & pressure, that you can do in your head:

Depth in meters multiplied by 10/3 gives depth in feet;
Feet multiplied by 3/10 gives meters.
Example: 18m(10/3) = 60' ; 60'(3/10) = 18m

Pressure bar multiplied by 3/2, and multiplied again by 10 gives pressure psi;
Pressure psi multiplied by 2/3, and divided by 10 gives pressure bar.
Ex): 200bar(3/2)(10) = 3000psi ; 3000psi(2/3)/10 = 200bar.
___
Your common counting numbers, or reference cardinal numbers, for depth in scuba are:

Imperial US (feet) by 10's:
Ex): 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 etc

Metric system goes by 3's:
Ex): 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 33 etc

Practice the depth conversion factors above between the two number sequences. . .
 
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Your approach sets an expectation that running out of air is an inevitable part of recreational diving.


Rubbish and insulting.

I've never said that at any point. I'm saying you and others have made dive planning more convoluted than it actually is. The reason SAC's are not included in the OW course is because you don't need them to make a simple safe plan. Which would be about the 5th time I've had to say this in this thread.

A low blow and I've lost whatever respect I had for your posts in suggesting that I try to teach rec divers to run out of air.
 
... so then why do so many recreational divers run out of air at depth?

I submit it happens because many instructors teach people that gas management isn't important at the recreational level ... and focus instead on how to react to running out of air, rather than how not to. Your approach sets an expectation that running out of air is an inevitable part of recreational diving. It's not ... and I'd rather teach someone to avoid the emergency altogether.

Seems like common sense ... the best emergency, after all, is the one you avoid through proper planning ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Rubbish and insulting.

I've never said that at any point. I'm saying you and others have made dive planning more convoluted than it actually is. The reason SAC's are not included in the OW course is because you don't need them to make a simple safe plan. Which would be about the 5th time I've had to say this in this thread.

A low blow and I've lost whatever respect I had for your posts in suggesting that I try to teach rec divers to run out of air.
No . . . I don't believe Bob is suggesting that you literally teach that. It's just your rhetorical "It is what it is" lamentation suggests that this deficiency in gas planning awareness at the Basic OW Level is too complicated to bother with . . .so just "be back to the surface with 35bar/500psi".

It is not convoluted nor complicated at all --just simple arithmetic & algebra, and vital to learn fundamentally as early as possible.

"The cure for cynicism is simply to engage honestly."
--Jeremy Paxman
 
Rubbish and insulting.

I've never said that at any point. I'm saying you and others have made dive planning more convoluted than it actually is. The reason SAC's are not included in the OW course is because you don't need them to make a simple safe plan. Which would be about the 5th time I've had to say this in this thread.

A low blow and I've lost whatever respect I had for your posts in suggesting that I try to teach rec divers to run out of air.

You're the one who's been insulting ... as you've had a history of doing since joining the board.

I'm not looking to argue with you ... which would be rather pointless. But when you make comments like you've made previously in this thread, you come across someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

You made a statement that PADI OW is a rigid set of do's and dont's ... which suggests that you don't comprehend that agency standards (even PADI's) are intended to provide a baseline of skill sets, not a ceiling which provides everything you need to know.

You made a statement that if you exceed your depth by 10 cm you go to Plan B ... which suggests that you don't comprehend the nature of deco, the point of a Plan B, or the fact that 10 cm is 0.01 ATA, which is an essentially meaningless quantity in any consideration of decompression obligation. It suggests that you don't comprehend even the basics of how decompression works. Nor is it even relevent to the conversation we were having here. The only point seems to be an attempt on your part to come across as some sort of impressively skilled diver.

You made a statement that you can't safely push the limits, othewise they aren't limits ... which suggests that you don't understand that there is no "line" upon which one side is safe and the other is not. The nature of diving ... whether you're talking deco obligation, gas management, or any number of factors ... is that there are an interconnected set of risk factors associated with your dive plan. "Safe" is a relative term, based on a continnum of risk factors. You base your decisions on a fundamental understanding of what those factors are, and how much risk you find acceptable ... and then you factor a certain amount of mitigation into your limits. Exceeding those limits doesn't necessarily make you any less safe ... it simply increases the odds that it might. For example, the classic "end the dive with 500 psi". So how much less safe are you if you end your dive with 400 psi? ... or 350? Another example ... take two dive computers of different manufacture and strap them side-by-side on your wrist ... take them diving ... and notice the variance in NDL. Why does that variance exist? What does it mean? How does that affect you as an individual diver? Which one will you follow? And why?

These aren't difficult questions to answer ... and yet you've not attempted to answer ANY of them. I suspect it's because you can't ... which is why you're so quick to dismiss the ideas of those of us who can.

Diving's NOT an exact science. You ... an individual ... will present varying levels of risk into your dive every time you go diving. Those risk factors will depend on a great many things about you that change on a daily basis. Your dive computer ... or the tables you used to plan your dive ... don't know a thing about you, or what you did within the last 24 hours that might impact those risk factors. So how can you determine that 10 cm difference in depth will have ANY impact on your safety whatsoever? Again, how can you even tell?? In case you're not aware, the pressure sensor in your computer doesn't even function to within those tolerances. Hell ... even moving your arm to look at your gauge is going to change the depth reading by more than 10 cm in some cases ... and doing things like a bottle switch CERTAINLY will. So while that might make you ... in your own eyes ... look like some sort of impressive diver ... it's MEANINGLESS!

When you make statements like that, you deserve to be called out as someone who's either trolling or doesn't know what he's talking about.

Think about what you post ... and try giving some meaningful rationalization for why you take that position. Otherwise, you're just regurgitating something you read or were told without really understanding it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 8th, 2013 at 10:05 AM ----------

No . . . I don't believe Bob is suggesting that you literally teach that. It's just your rhetorical "It is what it is" lamentation suggests that this deficiency in gas planning awareness at the Basic OW Level is too complicated to bother with . . .so just "be back to the surface with 35bar/500psi".

It is not convoluted nor complicated at all --just simple arithmetic & algebra, and vital to learn fundamentally as early as possible.

"The cure for cynicism is simply to engage honestly."
--Jeremy Paxman

Exactly my point.

Gas management isn't a difficult topic ... I've had people in my seminars who aren't even certified yet who understand it perfectly.

But when you believe something is difficult or unnecessary, you won't learn it ...even when it is completely within your capacity to do so.

And when you teach others that it is difficult or unnecessary, you are doing them a disservice ... and closing their mind to something that could easily make them a safer and better diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
"You teach best what you most need to learn. . ."

"Learning is finding out what you already know.
Doing is demonstrating that you know it.
Teaching is reminding others that they know just as well as you"


--Richard Bach

(Hey Bob, how 'bout learning to dive in Metric too. . .?)
:wink:
 
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