Basic Training + Planning

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The above contingency profile incorporates a relatively sane & controlled ascent technique --essentially 30 seconds pause at each 3 meter (or 10 foot) interval, with a 30 second moving ascent time in between-- so you & your air sharing buddy don't both shoot to the surface together like a Submarine-Launched-Ballistic-Missile. . .

The main point of the gas planning exercise above is that two novice divers gas sharing in an emergency Out-of-Air Contingency from a single 11L/AL80 Tank may not have enough breathing gas to reach the surface from 30 meters/100 feet deep --which is why beginning/novice divers should not be diving any deeper than 18m/60' for any significant length of time.

Allowing for a 3 metre per minute ascent rate seems a bit conservative -- 9 metres per minute is slow enough for me. But that's a discussion for another thread, if you care enough to continue. I agree entirely with your main point that 'novice divers should not be diving any deeper than 18m/60' for any significant length of time'.
 
A Quick Contingency "Rock Bottom" Calculation and Gas Plan Estimate for Open Water for a deep dive to 30 meters to illustrate why beginners/novices should NOT be going to these depths beyond 18 meters:

For a single 11 litre tank (AL80), a total of 11 litres/bar metric tank rating and a diver's volume Surface Consumption Rate (SCR) of 22 litres/min -same as a pressure SCR of 2 bar/min*ATA (divide 22 litres/min by 11 litres/bar)- using an example NDL air dive to 30m (4 ATA) depth in Open Water.

Emergency Reserve/Rock Bottom pressure calculation, from 30 meters with one minute stops every 3 meters to the surface,
-->Just "tally the ATA's":
4.0
3.7
3.4
3.1
2.8
2.5
2.2
1.9
1.6
1.3


Sum Total: 26.5

:confused: Seriously this so far off the mark that I think you put this in as joke. No one in their right mind would plan for 10 stops on a 30 metre dive. I fail to see the rational in so many stops. The whole point of no-decompression diving is that the slow ascent is washing off what minimal deco you have incurred. This can even be achieved by the polaris like 18mpm ascent rate stipulated in the RDP.

Personally I go slower, but it's nice to know that the research done when creating the RDP means that if I hit 18mpm I'm not going to sweat or bubble :wink:

Multiplied by 2 bar/min*ATA equals 53 bar Rock Bottom absolute reading remaining on your SPG. --this also happens to be the pressure in bar needed for one person in an emergency contingency to reach the surface with the above minimum decompression ascent profile.

So ideally for a two person buddy team, multiply 53 by 2 which is 106 bar for both to reach the surface (sharing in a buddy Out-ot-Gas contingency).

But realistically, for two experienced divers stressed: 106 bar plus 30% of 106 bar equals 138 bar Rock Bottom SPG reading.

For two novice divers stressed: 106 bar plus 100% of 106 bar equals 212 bar (200 bar is the standard starting pressure for a full AL80/11L Tank!!!)
--->obviously then, two novice divers on single 11L tanks should not be diving to 30m for any significant length of time. . .

Again no. Your letting the burden of knowledge weigh down the simplicity of recreational OW diving.

Assuming a 15mpm ascent rate it's only 2 minutes to the surface from 30 metres; slightly less to a safety stop.But lets base all gas consumption for the ascent at the deepest point use 22lpm SAC.

4ata x 22 SAC x 2 Min x 2 Divers = 352 litres or 32 bar

Adding in a safety stop 3 minutes at 5 metres

1.5 ata X 22 x 3 x 2 = 198 litres or 18 bar

Total 50 bar

Assuming the 30% increase in respiration 65 bar


5 bar less than the minimum I recommend a few posts back for a simple dive plan.
 
Wart Master Instructor, can you assume two novice divers gas sharing in an Out-Of-Air Contingency can ascend at 15m/min, with all that momentum & buoyancy under control from 30m -- and then suddenly "slam on the brakes" for the 3min safety stop at 5m depth???

Surely sir. --YOU ARE THE ONE OBVIOUSLY JOKING!!!

Again . . .The main point of the gas planning exercise above is that two novice divers gas sharing in an emergency Out-of-Air Contingency from a single 11L/AL80 Tank may not have enough breathing gas to reach the surface from 30 meters/100 feet deep --which is why beginning/novice divers should not be diving any deeper than 18m/60' for any significant length of time.
 
Wart Master Instructor

damn straight I also do weddings and bah mitzvahs :D

can you assume two novice divers gas sharing in an Out-Of-Air Contingency can ascend at 15m/min, with all that momentum & buoyancy under control from 30m -- and then suddenly "slam on the brakes" for the 3min safety stop at 5m depth???

Surely sir. --YOU ARE THE ONE OBVIOUSLY JOKING!!!

The whole point of teaching the safety stop in OW is that the students learn to slam on the brakes as most likely they are ascending to fast as they are novice divers. Having them aim at 5 metres as opposed to aiming at the surface is a good example of why we call it a safety stop. Lets not forget that the RDP suggests a rate of 18mpm. Which probably means you can go faster as it errs on the side of caution, not in any way am I suggesting your should, but there is a lot of leeway in recreational diving.
Students do not come out of the OW course fully formed divers, no matter what their instructor claims. Most of them will ascend slightly to fast, be about 30 degress of horizontal and go through air like someone is going to take it away from them.

But.

As long as they stick to the limits proscribed by the RDP, which is fairly lenient, dives can be planned to 30m with a limited amount of experience. Hence why you can start PADI OW immediately following your OW.



Again . . .The main point of the gas planning exercise above is that two novice divers gas sharing in an emergency Out-of-Air Contingency from a single 11L/AL80 Tank may not have enough breathing gas to reach the surface from 30 meters/100 feet deep --which is why beginning/novice divers should not be diving any deeper than 18m/60' for any significant length of time.

Your example did not demonstrate that. Your example demonstrated how you would ascend from that depth, based on a knowledge that goes far beyond that of a novice diver. A novice diver trained under PADI's RDP would plan the dive in a completely different manner. Either dive would you get you of of the water safely. Is either way wrong? Not really, but a I'd wager a staggering majority ascend in a manner similar to what I suggested as opposed to your suggestion*

*We're talking real world here, not what people claim they do on the internet.
 
Point of Order to ScubaBoard:

Which is the better pre-dive gas sharing plan & practice in an Out-of-Air Contingency: a slow ascent strategy & tactic with plenty of breathing gas margin, or the above "interpretation" of the novice diver planning with the PADI RDP, and "slamming on the brakes" for a safety stop at 5m?

Pray tell us and elaborate more like above, Mister Wart the Master Instructor from England. . .
 
Point of Order to ScubaBoard:

Which is the better pre-dive gas sharing plan & practice in an Out-of-Air Contingency: a slow ascent strategy & tactic with plenty of breathing gas margin, or the above "interpretation" of the novice diver planning with the PADI RDP, and "slamming on the brakes" for a safety stop at 5m?

slamming the brakes was actually your phrase, I merely used it in response.

I could have wrote, students have the tendency to ascend faster than they should therefore the practice of a safety stop will help to arrest your ascent, rather than go to directly to the surface. But I wrote in your own words.

Elaborate? Sure. I'd base it on the thousands of dives that take place daily that more closely resemble my example than yours. I've used it for over 2000 dives and the only time I've seen the inside of a chamber was when waving to someone else.

Diving is inherently easy. Listening to advice on the internet males it look hard.:cool2:


Pray tell us and elaborate more like above, Mister Wart the Master Instructor from England. . .

Wart is my first name, not surname, so the Mister is inappropriate. Not seeing the fascination with quoting my name and location, it's all under my avatar anyway..


Again burden of knowledge. Go have look at the required decompression/ascent rate of no-deco dive and then tell me I'm wrong.
 
Getting back to the point of this thread ...

I was reading in a magazine about technical diving and being able to properly plan dives. Based off of what my PADI OW book states and my actual course (3/5 modules completed), I was wondering- why isn't air consumption and decompression something more focused on? Is it and I'm missing content from a difference of instructors or dive associations? It feels pretty basic in knowledge to be able to plan a dive from beginning to end in a very thorough manner with even just a basic level certification.

Let me elaborate below:

So far from what I'm both reading and being told air consumption and decompression isn't a large focus of just basic open water certification. You learn about staying within NDL and to always keep an eye on your SPG but the magazine I was reading had it right I think. A large separation between rec and tec divers is planning and knowledge. It may just be my anal will to learn and know everything about what I'm doing, especially in dangerous settings but I'd like to be able to plan out a dive and be able to appropriately troubleshoot (ie. reaching into decompression stops) most problems. I know that as a common article OW certified divers aren't supposed to have to worry about decompression if they're being smart and following the dive tables- but would the knowledge ever hurt someone? I'm trying to look at this as more of a planning empowerment situation over one to empower dangerous stupidity in testing boundaries you're not supposed to be inserting yourself into. As far as air consumption goes I think it would be kind of neat to start scuba knowing what your consumption is and to be able to improve it and see progress and at a later point if possible, plan more dives with the same tank air permitting (ie. I go for 30mins at 40ft and consume 1/3 a tank, I'm able to then logically calculate I'm able to safely squeeze in x amount of time at x depth on a single cylinder).

Just a few noob thoughts, not trying to start a certification flame war depending on peoples preferences. *puts on learning cap*

Zack, the reasons why more gas management isn't taught at the basic level ... and this applies to most agencies, not just PADI ... are various. You've heard some, which have to do with the course length, the amount of material already covered, the market demand for this knowledge, and the fact that since this information isn't taught at ANY recreational level in many agency curricula, there's a distinct possibility that your instructor never learned it.

I have spent the better part of eight years traveling around my local area ... basically anywhere I can drive to within a few hours ... giving free seminars on the subject of gas management. I've met dive instructors and course directors who've told me they never really thought about it. I've had not-yet-certified students attend and completely "get" the concepts. It isn't difficult to learn ... it's just that, in the current mode of dive training, reactive gas management seems to be easier to teach than proactice gas management. In other words ... "watch your gauges" and "end the dive with 500 psi" seem to be the prevalent thought process of most in the dive instruction business.

Someone earlier posted a link to the gas management article on my website. I encourage you to read it, and feel free to PM me with any questions it may cause you to consider. What I tell folks in the seminars is that I'm not expecting them to run the math every time they dive, I want them to start changing how they think about dive planning ... because gas management IS a part of dive planning ... and consider how much gas you have BEFORE the dive, rather than waiting to think about it until after the dive is underway. A fundamental part of dive planning should always be to assure yourself, before the dive begins, that you are carrying adequate gas to do the dive you're planning to do.

As for my own classes, I introduce the concepts in OW ... but do not spend a lot of time on gas management until AOW. I do it this way for two basic reasons. First, because at the OW level I want my students to focus on the basics of buoyancy control, awareness, and proper trim. Learning to dive involves not just singular skills, but the ability to combine those skills in an environment you've never before been exposed to. This requires some fundamental behavioral changes ... as an example, putting on a mask greatly reduces your ability to see what's going on around you, and you have to learn to move around more to see what you've always been able to see with peripheral vision. Because this involves a behavioral change, a lot of people don't do it ... and the usual result is a buddy separation at some point, until the new behavior is learned. So for this reason, at the OW level, I encourage students to dive conservatively, be aware of your limitations, and give yourself a large safety margin until you gain more experience and knowledge.

At the AOW level, gas management makes more sense ... because that is where you are introduced to deeper, more aggressive dives that will cut into your safety margins and require more knowledge of appropriate reserves for dealing with unexpected problems. Furthermore, by the time you reach AOW, you will have at least enough dives under your belt to be able to make reasonable measurements of your actual gas consumption rates ... your "miles per gallon", as it were ... and therefore be able to make use of the techniques used to calculate how much gas you'll need for a given dive. My students, prior to their deep dive, are required to calculate how much gas they'll need for the dive plan. It's often at that point that they realize ... without my needing to tell them so ... that the AL80 they've been diving with isn't adequate for the dive they're planning to do. They then have the tools to make better decisions about whether to either shorten the dive, reduce the planned depth, or opt for a larger tank.

I congratulate you on thinking about this ... most divers don't. The first time I offered a gas management seminar, only two people showed up ... TSandM was one of them. Since then I'm happy to say that more and more I fill rooms with people who are thinking about this topic. Even happier to say that some other instructors are now teaching it, and a couple in my area are even offering seminars of their own on the subject. This makes me happy, because to my concern this is the single most important topic that usually gets overlooked in typical recreational dive instruction.

There should never be a reason for running out of air at depth ... and I look forward to the day when the dive instruction community puts as much effort into teaching people how not to run out of air as they currently put into teaching them how to react when they or their dive buddy do run out.

Proaction is always better than reaction ... you have my respect for being proactive ... it tells me that you have what it takes to become a very good diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I just want to point out that the 10 fpm ascent from the deepest point of the dive was the profile Marroni et al found was the worst for bubbling. (I can no longer find the article on the DAN website.) Most of us who are using a stepped ascent profile similar to what Kevrumbo posted are using a 30 fpm ascent to half maximal depth, and 10 fpm after that. And yes, it takes training to be able to do this while sharing gas.

When we teach basic gas management to our PADI students, we teach them to calculate a reserve for a 30 fpm ascent and a 3 minute safety stop. It's not as much gas as is required by the minimum deco ascent, but they are also (at least in theory) not diving to MDL limits, either. And honestly, the precise amount of gas you reserve is not an exact number, anyway; it's the concept of having a reserve, and making it a generous one, that we want students to get.
 
There should never be a reason for running out of air at depth ... and I look forward to the day when the dive instruction community puts as much effort into teaching people how not to run out of air as they currently put into teaching them how to react when they or their dive buddy do run out.

One thing that continues to blow my mind when the entire mantra to diving is to plan ahead so errors or worse don't happen and train so that they're dealt with appropriately if they do. I know it again, still doesn't align with the course direction of the typical rec diver who goes on vacation, but still :shakehead: I bet at least a few times a year in resorts someone goes too deep away from their party for just a bit of extra time, runs out of air and needs a buddy assist because they weren't checking their gauges and didn't know exactly what they had in air and time. I'd think also knowing this would encourage checking SPG's more often too knowing your time limit, no?
 
I bet at least a few times a year in resorts someone goes too deep away from their party for just a bit of extra time, runs out of air and needs a buddy assist because they weren't checking their gauges and didn't know exactly what they had in air and time. I'd think also knowing this would encourage checking SPG's more often too knowing your time limit, no?

Well if your break your depth and don't check your gauges it doesn't really matter how much pre-dive work you do, it's pure Darwinism from then on in.
 
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