Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[flots am]

Well, my "beyond stupid" is taken with the entire context of what I said. To take someone to that depth, with that "someone" not having an understanding of the how's and why's is just what I said it was. That is my opinion, and the rest of the flaming by you is kind of baseless and .unwarranted

I'm good with "stupid" as a description. Air @180' will give you an IQ on par with some of the creatures that live there.

and ignorance of diving's history

Just because someone did it in the past, doesn't make it a good idea. "Diving history" is littered with people who did stupid things and paid the price.

flots.

 

[nimoh]

I wouldn't call it stupid to dive to 180 on air, I would call it risky.

Personally, I plan to wait until I am trimix certified.

 

[p1p]

when I was operational we dove to 180 frequently on air, not that I would reccomend it though. Sometimes it wasnt pleasant.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We could have a discussion about what is and isn't a sensible MOD for air on a given dive, but last I checked even with the current (and very conservative) 1.4 working PPO2, air has a MOD of ~190'. Lots of people have opinions about at the depth at which narcosis is extreme enough to warrant using helium--not a single one of them is an objective fact.

A comment that 'all dives to 180' on air are beyond stupid' reveals more about the speaker's narrow-mindedness and ignorance of diving's history than it does about the intelligence of someone executing a dive to 180' with air for backgas.

We'll have to disagree on that one ... and for reasons that have little to do with MOD. Way too many people are going to those depths with very little comprehension of the risks ... much less any preparation for dealing with them. At 180 feet, even a minor problem can have major consequences if you aren't prepared to handle it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dr. Lecter]

even a minor problem can have major consequences if you aren't prepared to handle it ...

A truth applicable to far more stituations in diving than deep air, or just going deep period. I'll happily agree with the statement that any inexperienced diver heading to 180' on an AL80 filled with air is executing a stupid dive, and an inexperienced diver throwing on a doubles rig without understanding how to use it to mitigate risk isn't much brighter.

Where things start to be less black and white is when the diver has the experience, gear, and gas supply necessary to do the dive in a way that controls for a greater number of the inherent risks of being a human under 180' of water.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think it boils down to "It's what they don't know they don't know".

I often have students "not get" the PO2 basic discussion in the OWD classes. Granted, we do not spend a lot of time on gas laws, the physiological effects, etc. This goes hand-in-hand with their consumption rates.

So they hear of their buddies doing it, and don't have a clue what this does to them. No harm, no foul, right? It's only when you sit them down and chart out PO2 ratios, oxygen toxicity, etc., would it even start to make a dent.

I've had people in my own advanced classes admit to doing it. Worse, you have places in the Bahamas that advertise taking you down to over 180 feet on air. Beyond stupid.

There is no inherent problem with air dives to below 180 (well ... the science community limit for air has been 190, since the early 1950s, we've never had an incident of any sort). What is required is good training, preparation and planning.

 

[lowviz]

PSAI Narcosis Management Level I begins at 100'. To get the experience you describe takes L1, 100' then L2,130' then L3,150' on air. Trimix fundamentals L1 starts at 180.

Are you really telling people that it is fine to go to 180+' on air if they have experience, gear, and gas?

---------- Post added December 7th, 2012 at 07:08 PM ----------

Seriously, I'm not going to go back-and-forth on this one. I know for a fact that it isn't for me.

I know for a fact that I can do 140' on air, but unfortunately FOR ME it falls under "hold my beer and watch..." I'm far from an uber diver, and divers like me read BASIC SCUBA DISCUSSIONS.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Are you really telling people that it is fine to go to 180+' on air if they have experience, gear, and gas?

That depends on what you mean by "fine," but what else would you suggest they have? Of course, only they can decide if the experience, gear, and gas they have is sufficient to execute any given dive in a manner they consider acceptably safe.

The real questions are, do they fully understand the consequences of making that decision, and, do others fully understand that their own definition of what's an acceptably risky dive versus an unacceptably risky dive is not something they can transfer to that person's choices.

 

[lowviz]

Allow me to rephrase in the context of Basic Scuba Discussions:

Stupid idea, don't do it.

 

[Thalassamania]

There are people who should not be permitted to cross the street, there are others who quite capable of diving to 190 on air and accomplishing useful work and observations. The real trick is ... knowing which one of the two you are today.