The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
We dive as buddy pairs. If there are three, then I am part of a three person buddy team. You're trying to force a round peg in a square hole here. I don't teach like you do so I don't need a special buddy.
Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training
- Thread starter tstormdiver
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I don't want to appear dense, but from what I read here, it is not just that CESA is not required during the OW dives; NASE does not have ANY required skills during those dives. Students just dive. You say you MIGHT have them do skills,and they only clear masks AS THEY NEED IT. All skills are taught in the swimming pool, and none need to be demonstrated during the actual OW dives. Am I misreading this?
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I would never call you dense... but try to Scuba Dive without those skills. It's just not possible. After the skills are mastered in the pool, I want to see my students actually DIVE. They have to show me competency. It's a huge departure from the serial skill mentality and I love it. Why? It's producing a superior product. Competency is the next logical step after mastery and that's what I need to see on their dives.
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My issue is with pairing up OW students and presuming something magical has happened.
Have the pair now, somehow, become much more capable divers? No.
I just read through both Accidents and Incidents and Lessons Learned. Pairing with an experienced diver up until a modicum of self-sufficiency is achieved by the weaker diver would have dramatically reduced the content of both fourms. We all know that this is not feasable from an instructional standpoint, but let's call it for what it is. Financially unworkable.
Looks like the OW diver pair that panicked and (both) died early this year have been overwritten and buried with subsequent incidents, can't find that thread...
---------- Post added December 2nd, 2012 at 11:45 PM ----------
Makes my point.
Similar start. So I headed into PSD training. Totally killed my innate sense of trim and buoyancy. However, mucking about on the bottom looking for the object du jour in weeds, zero viz, branches, mud, ice, and rocks (with some ER bull mastiff sweetheart that will not fail as my line tender) was transformational. I now have no intentions of ever dying underwater. TeamLGS' "job one" was drilled in as "go home at the end of the day". Got solid with the basic idea, team, and required skills.
Graduated to Atlantic wreckdiving. Not a biggie with trim either.
Now all I need is style and grace. Badly. Long hard road. If I die, odds on favorite cause is the NJ Turnpike...
Have the pair now, somehow, become much more capable divers? No.
I just read through both Accidents and Incidents and Lessons Learned. Pairing with an experienced diver up until a modicum of self-sufficiency is achieved by the weaker diver would have dramatically reduced the content of both fourms. We all know that this is not feasable from an instructional standpoint, but let's call it for what it is. Financially unworkable.
Looks like the OW diver pair that panicked and (both) died early this year have been overwritten and buried with subsequent incidents, can't find that thread...
---------- Post added December 2nd, 2012 at 11:45 PM ----------
Makes my point.
Similar start. So I headed into PSD training. Totally killed my innate sense of trim and buoyancy. However, mucking about on the bottom looking for the object du jour in weeds, zero viz, branches, mud, ice, and rocks (with some ER bull mastiff sweetheart that will not fail as my line tender) was transformational. I now have no intentions of ever dying underwater. TeamLGS' "job one" was drilled in as "go home at the end of the day". Got solid with the basic idea, team, and required skills.
Graduated to Atlantic wreckdiving. Not a biggie with trim either.
Now all I need is style and grace. Badly. Long hard road. If I die, odds on favorite cause is the NJ Turnpike...
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/q-...cy-ascents-different-agency-perspectives.html
This was done to allow the current thread here to return to the discussion of the question of what motivates divers to undertake risky dives without training.
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OK, my post seems to have set things amiss. I'll speak to the quote above:
To the untrained, a "risky dive" is simply and naively seen as just the next logical step in one's dive progression. I've been there. I now know better. Much, much, better. It is hard to judge "distance". Everything looks like the next logical step...
im some small way, every dive i have done has been past my training. every dive is in an effort to learn and progress. always something new going on. i have never done a dive i wasnt comfortable doing. I have dove nitrox, done a night dive, exceeded 60ft, low viz, swim throughs, etc. now whats gives me pause is the ability to realize when i need a little something extra to proceed. later this month ill take cavern class and intro to cave. yes i do think i need the training the class has to offer. yes, i practice running reels now. yes, that is beyond my training.
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I think it boils down to "It's what they don't know they don't know".
I often have students "not get" the PO2 basic discussion in the OWD classes. Granted, we do not spend a lot of time on gas laws, the physiological effects, etc. This goes hand-in-hand with their consumption rates.
So they hear of their buddies doing it, and don't have a clue what this does to them. No harm, no foul, right? It's only when you sit them down and chart out PO2 ratios, oxygen toxicity, etc., would it even start to make a dent.
I've had people in my own advanced classes admit to doing it. Worse, you have places in the Bahamas that advertise taking you down to over 180 feet on air. Beyond stupid.
I often have students "not get" the PO2 basic discussion in the OWD classes. Granted, we do not spend a lot of time on gas laws, the physiological effects, etc. This goes hand-in-hand with their consumption rates.
So they hear of their buddies doing it, and don't have a clue what this does to them. No harm, no foul, right? It's only when you sit them down and chart out PO2 ratios, oxygen toxicity, etc., would it even start to make a dent.
I've had people in my own advanced classes admit to doing it. Worse, you have places in the Bahamas that advertise taking you down to over 180 feet on air. Beyond stupid.
Dr. Lecter
Contributor
We could have a discussion about what is and isn't a sensible MOD for air on a given dive, but last I checked even with the current (and very conservative) 1.4 working PPO2, air has a MOD of ~190'. Lots of people have opinions about at the depth at which narcosis is extreme enough to warrant using helium--not a single one of them is an objective fact.
A comment that 'all dives to 180' on air are beyond stupid' reveals more about the speaker's narrow-mindedness and ignorance of diving's history than it does about the intelligence of someone executing a dive to 180' with air for backgas.
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Well, my "beyond stupid" is taken with the entire context of what I said. To take someone to that depth, with that "someone" not having an understanding of the how's and why's is just what I said it was. That is my opinion, and the rest of the flaming by you is kind of baseless and .unwarranted
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