what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

[50Fathom]

Oh, you have GOT to be kidding. You clearly have never spent any time talking to a GUE instructor, or listening to a GUE class. A tremendous amount of time is spent explaining various approaches to things, identify the GUE approach, and explaining WHY it was chosen. It's as far from indoctrination as I can imagine . . . people are actively encouraged to ask questions and to question the gear, the procedures, the protocols, the gases, the deco, and on and on. The fact that people adopt the system whole-hog and then get evangelical about it just speaks to the extent to which the explanations are convincing, and the power of seeing it work, over and over again, in a wide variety of settings.

You may not LIKE the DIR agencies. That's your privilege, and if you don't want to recognize their cards, more power to you. But the divers who have earned those cards would be some of the easiest people to dive with that you could encounter. Everywhere I have gone where dive boats have the experience of GUE groups, they love them. Avid, safety-conscious divers, competent, and no drama. They follow rules.

What you are seeing is an attitude that is very typical of Texas Divers. For some reason, DIR/GUE/UTD is just verboten here, as far as the Diving Culture goes.

I had a buddy of mine, the guy who got me into DIR, matter-of-fact, do a dive on a local lake charter boat, (The Giant Stride, for the locals, on New Years Day, 2011). Anyhow, he dives Halcyon gear, and just the fact that he had Halcyon kit, he said a diver came over to him, and said with a sneer, "Oh, you must be one of THOSE divers." And he wasn't being playful.

Now, this guy is one of THE most laid-back divers and people ever, and he defused the situation, but he said that he was a bit shocked that it would happen. (He was in the military and learned to dive with a DIR group out on Okinawa, and this happened after he PCS'd here to Ft. Hood.)

He got me into the philosophy, I took Fundies, and that was that. I'm all-in, 100%.

As a counter-point, I co-manage (with my wife), a small dive shop about an hour north of their shop, and we are GUE-friendly to say the least. We have four instructors on staff, and three of us are Fundified and Philosophy-Compliant. I am part-way through the Cave course from my GUE Instructor/Sensei/Mentor, and our team is heading to FL for more Cave training this December, and planning on Tech 1 next year.

We try to bring that level of care and attention to detail to our own instruction, whether it's OW, or anything else. We have relationships with two GUE instructors and with GUE-affiliated explorers at the local university, (our primary teaching source, since we teach the diving courses there).

We have had Primer classes here, we offer "tweak dives" for DIR-curious people, and we've attempted to offer Fundies training, but, honestly, no one wants to pony up the dough, or get their gear compliant. (Or if you get someone interested, it's ONE person. Not enough for a class.)

(Snarky comment about Texas Divers and gear configuration redacted. Gotta be a good Ambassador for the Philosophy.)

Anyway, it's frustrating, being into this style of diving, where we are. But you make the best of it. I've met a DIR diver in San Antonio that hasn't been diving in over two years, (since he PCS'd to Lackland AFB), and had all but given up on finding anyone to dive with, then he found us via a SB member here, and that was that. We got him back in the water, and we have another good team member to boot. Awesome.

Again, if anyone in Central TX wants to see what all the hubbub is about, just contact me or maybe run into us at one of the local lakes, (we're out nearly every weekend), and we'll go diving. No pressure, no preaching and no proselytizing. Just getting into the water and diving. We're REALLY laid back and cool, don't care how you dive, and just want to share how we dive, if anyone is curious.

One of our teammates loves to say, "don't talk about it, be about it." Let's get in the water and BE about it. Let the skills, teamwork and protocols speak for themselves. My buddy that got me into it didn't need to say anything on land, but seeing him in the water and seeing the skills in action, well, I realized that I needed me some of that. And here I am...

YMMV.

 

[TSandM]

I think that's a common theme -- I got in the water with NW Grateful Diver and looked at him and said, "I want me some of that!"

 

[Cyprian]

50Fathom,

I was wondering when you might step into this thread being a GUE diver who happens to be a NAUI Instructor as well. As always, your comments are well said.

Personally, I was going to leave this thread alone, but considering the fact that we are working on forming a larger GUE group in the Texas/Oklahoma region I will jump in with a few brief comments.

First, I do not see a lot of this animosity toward GUE/UTD here in the DFW area. Sure there are a few, but that will happen with any agency. Of a small dive group that I am part of, with around 15 members at present, only 6 of us dive in a philosophy compliant gear configuration. Do we have inter-fighting? Absolutely not! We just go out an dive. As a matter of fact of our small 7 member team that we took to Trashfest at the Comal River a couple weekends ago, only 2 were on the GUE path. Big deal. No one seemed to care.

Second, am I missing something with the comment from a NAUI instructor, especially as relates to NAUI Tech? Wasn't Andrew G the NAUI Tech Training Director at one point, and isn't a lot of the NAUI configuration DIR or Hogarthian? Honest question, as I am asking out of ignorance. It just baffles me that a comment was made about GUE teaching standards.

Third, I know a few NAUI, PADI DSAT, TDI tech instructors (full cave divers) that I've talked to about GUE. They said that they recognize the contributions that GUE has made to the diving world, specifically toward the cave community, but they have chosen not to go down that specific path for various reasons. Yet everyone of them said it was a well thought out, safe system that is proven.

So let me return once more to a paraphrased statement that I borrow from Lynne: "GUE is a holistic system. I have chosen to dive within this system because I feel that it is safe and effective." Me? I just want to go diving. I'll take a gear configuration, gas management strategy, standard mix system that has already withstood the test of time and not worry about tweaking it. Does that make me mindless? LOL. No, I just eliminated a lot of concerns so I can go dive in a safe manner. I consider it somewhat analogous to the custom rifles that I shoot for fun. I have a precise weapon in a caliber that has won numerous long range contests, with super high grade optics....now it's up to me, the shooter to do the job. I did not build the rifle. I did not work out the load (though I do handload). I just want to shoot.

To end and jump off of my soapbox: I am not saying GUE is the only system that is safe and effective. I am not saying that you might die if you don't dive GUE/UTD. Will I dive with you if you do not? Yes, as long as you are safety conscious.

Anyway, let's just go diving......

Cyp

 

[lv2dive]

...You either get it or you don't. The word "agency" (choose your own definition) is appropriate for PADI and NAUI, but not for GUE. If you figure why, let me know.

Well, i don't (get it). Following this thread, I am just extremely curious as to why there have been no replies to the repeated inquiries for further explanation? (not counting the ambiguous non-responses such as the above)

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I have a feeling that Moonglow won't be offering any further clarification or answers to any questions.
She doesn't appear to have thought any of what she has posted through.

Either we get it, or we don't.

---------- Post Merged at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:25 PM ----------

Second, am I missing something with the comment from a NAUI instructor, especially as relates to NAUI Tech? Wasn't Andrew G the NAUI Tech Training Director at one point, and isn't a lot of the NAUI configuration DIR or Hogarthian? Honest question, as I am asking out of ignorance. It just baffles me that a comment was made about GUE teaching standards.

Cyp

I have read and heard the same thing. That the NAUI Tech equipment configuration and teaching were very similar to GUE. With that I mind, I also thought it was kind of odd that a NAUI instructor would hold that opinion of GUE.....assuming that NAUI Tech was very similar.

Her opinions sound like they belong to someone living in a bubble. If you were certified through one shop, did all of your diving with that one shop, and later progressed to become an instructor with that same shop. That would be your only frame of reference in diving.

It's possible that Moonglow might only have that sort of frame of reference.

She didn't come across as confrontational or anything....she may have only ever been exposed to those sort of opinions from her local bubble in the dive world.....I guess.


If so....she should get out more.
-Mitch

 

[randytay]

Unlike some of you, I did not have the good fortune of meeting any GUE/UTD divers when I started. I actually stumbled on them on the Internet by accident, when I was trying to look for a NAUI instructor for my brother in Singapore, and found this guy who is not only a NAUI CD and IANTD instructor, but also a UTD instructor. I watched his OW classes (pool and ocean) and was totally blown away by the high standards.

After poking around and interviewing some GUE and UTD instructors (I spoke to AG himself) and decided to go with UTD and has not looked back. Not only are they patient with my dive skills (or lack of at the time), but was also encouraging me to continue my education with NAUI/PADI. Never once did they ever mention they are the best or the only way to dive.

As a matter of fact, I will be doing my NAUI ITC in a week, and I got nothing but encouragements from AG and Jeff S, both my mentors from UTD. The local instructors? They took any opportunity they had to ostracize me and forbade any of their students to dive with me, all because I was trained by UTD. Pffft.

Which still begs the answer to the question: How and why are GUE and UTD not considered agencies? Even the man who wrote the NAUI standards says they are!

---------- Post Merged at 08:57 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:43 PM ----------

Actually, the CD who is doing my ITC has been in NAUI forever and he was impressed that I took classes with UTD. He is also affiliated with a GUE instructor at his shop even though he is not GUE himself, so it shows that he would recognize GUE and UTD too.

 

[chrpai]

50Fathom- It's almost like you were talking right at me as I'm guessing I'm the 1 person who would pony up for a local fundies class. If not, then there must be two of us.

My rig is mostly compliant. Helps with that solo dive I did yesterday. (I can hear you screaming now!)

 

[leabre]

Quoted out-of-order ...

We don't recognize either [UTD or GUE] as agencies for continuing education.

[We only accept] NAUI, PADI, YMCA, NASDS, SSI, SDI/TDI/ERDI, SEI, PSAI, ACUC, BSAC, CMAS, NASE, PDIC, ANDI, DAN, HSA, IDEA, IANTD, Red Cross, LA County, NACD, NCC-CDS

Great divers come from all types of programs...

Which includes UTD and GUE.

...As other posters have stated on this forum, GUE and UTD are not agencies by definition, they are more akin to regional dive clubs (there are others like them as well). We do not agree with the intent of GUE's teaching standards, which are more inline with indoctrination than that of instruction which results in independent thinking divers.

GUE and UTD are indeed training agencies by definition. The founder of UTD constantly refers to UTD as a training agency. One that vigorously produces new instructors and students. Both UTD and GUE offer OW classes. Over the course of the past 2 months I observed hundreds of new Open Water students produced by UTD in San Diego alone.

There is no indoctrination here. The very motto of UTD is to create thinking divers. The entire training regimen deeply reflects this core to prepare divers to be able to think and resolve issues before and after they happen. I rarely encounter newer non-UTD/GUE divers that have a deep sense of thought about the dive and I equally rarely encounter any UTD/GUE diver that consistently lacks such thought at any training level.

UTD will accept any other agency as a per-requisite to training (with possibly some remediation mostly pertaining to skills proficiency). GUE won't but that doesn't mean they are not a training agency. Certainly UTD and GUE are not dive shops or marketing machines, but they create their own original training curriculum, oversee the standards, enforce them, and insure instructors.

Our shop has a list of c-ards that we will accept, and we will accept no others. For the most part, the list is determined by the c-card being covered by insurance indemnity.

Not exactly sure what you mean by the C-card being covered by insurance indemnity. Perhaps it is just your insurer that doesn't recognize them (in which case you can list it and I'm sure AG will be happy to work with them to have his training agency added to the insurers list of accepted training agencies)? I'm a UTD cross-over, their Rec2 (Advanced Diver in their parlance), Cave 1, Tech 1, and Divemaster. I'm a UTD Divemaster and insured through Willis. I was NAUI Open Water certified, LA County Advanced diver graduate, and after that UTD. The quality of education with UTD is very high and rigorous. The training I received from my NAUI instructors from NAUI OW --> NAUI Master Diver was also high. The training I received from LA County ADP was exceptionally high and rigorous. The training I received from UTD was yet even higher even at lower levels of training.

My personal teaching philosophy is best represented by the NAUI standards; 70% of my new students go on to advanced ratings.

The same will be true of UTD and GUE. Ratings in UTD/GUE are different, however.

After UTD OW/Rec1, is Rec2 (Advanced Scuba Diver) which includes NITROX, 100' dive planning and emergency handling. Line handling, a tad of following a line back if one or more are blind or experiencing zero viz (and ascending properly in that condition), perhaps while air sharing. The class also covers getting a toxing or unconscious but breathing diver back to the surface safely while air sharing, various different types of valve failures including jammed drysuit inflater and stuck wing inflator, possibly on a line, and needing to respect all the safety stops that are necessary and planned for. The focus is very heavily on functioning as a team when the fit hits the shan. So most of the traditional night/deep/bouyancy/navigation/etc. are all wrapped up into this one class plus many more that PADI/NAUI/Et al. don't usually cover.

Someone mentioned UTD doesn't teach CESA. That is true. We plan our deep stops which is every 10' from half the deepest depth (or just 30/20/10 if at those depths). We plan our gas/air reserves such that from the deepest/furthest point of the dive one can get self and buddy to surface, including the stops, if buddy experiences some kind of gas-not-available situation. UTD/GUE divers do not dart to the surface, instead we plan for the worst, keep our nerves, and execute the plan.

After UTD Rec2 is Rec3 (Master Scuba Diver) which takes that to a whole new level. It covers diving to the 100'-130' range on trimix (no planned decompression) while taking the previous failures scenarios to a whole new level and will focus even more heavily on keeping schedule, precision ascents even in the face of multiple compounding failures (zero viz, air share, loss of one or more primary lights, etc.) among other things. These are not "easy" classes to pass, nor are they marketed to the masses as such, nor does UTD certify anyone that pays and attends but does not demonstrate competence in the subject matter and skill set.

So while most of your NAUI students go on to more advanced ratings... so does most UTD students. I don't know the statistics for GUE but I personally know many that also have gone on to Cave/Tech (which is really the only progression levels in GUE after Fundies (except GUE Rec3 -- which is a stepping-stone to Tech1).

I suppose it is safe to say that while most agencies produce divers, both UTD and GUE produce explorers.

At any point a UTD student may have also taken a class to learn how to inspect and O2 clean/rebuilt cylinders, valves, and manifolds. That student may also have taken a UTD class that teach how to service regulators. Said student may also learn how to mix/blend NITROX/TRIMIX. This is not the typical equipment specialist that teaches about your gear; this is more inline with a dive shop serviceman professional. I don't see PADI/NAUI/Et. al. offering anything comparable (those TDI does also offer the same classes).

I just don't see why GUE or UTD would be blacklisted from your shop unless your shop has made a personal prejudice against the agencies. But to each his own. Any such diver has got to be the easiest diver to enjoy a stress-free dive with consistently. Very few of us are difficult to get-along with or egotistic-doctrine-thumpers.

---------- Post Merged at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:31 PM ----------

I have a feeling that Moonglow won't be offering any further clarification or answers to any questions.
She doesn't appear to have thought any of what she has posted through.

Either we get it, or we don't.

---------- Post Merged at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:25 PM ----------



I have read and heard the same thing. That the NAUI Tech equipment configuration and teaching were very similar to GUE. With that I mind, I also thought it was kind of odd that a NAUI instructor would hold that opinion of GUE.....assuming that NAUI Tech was very similar.

Her opinions sound like they belong to someone living in a bubble. If you were certified through one shop, did all of your diving with that one shop, and later progressed to become an instructor with that same shop. That would be your only frame of reference in diving.

It's possible that Moonglow might only have that sort of frame of reference.

She didn't come across as confrontational or anything....she may have only ever been exposed to those sort of opinions from her local bubble in the dive world.....I guess.


If so....she should get out more.
-Mitch

If I encountered her shop, I would just flash my NAUI card and then continue to dive DIR. No need to talk about it, just dive and have fun. Most of the time questions follow: usually of the sort "where can I learn to dive like that" ... less frequently I get questions like "why don't you stay the F--k away from my class?" (while innocently swimming past the reef trying to negotiate a dust cloud parimeter). Sometimes no questions follow but a very exciting discussion about how awesome the dive was and when can we dive the next time.

But those who only have UTD OW/GUE OW training are out-of-luck. That is sad. The only other dive shop I've ever heard of not accepting UTD/GUE is Rusty's shop in the Inland Empire in Southern California. His reasons aren't of reason at all, just profit and salesmanship.

 

[Thalassamania]

Please, let's stop the dogpile on Moonglow and welcome her back into the fold. I, for one, am curious about what she has to say. We all might learn something.

---------- Post Merged at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:48 PM ----------

Please, let's stop the dogpile on Moonglow and welcome her back into the fold. I, for one, am curious about what she has to say. We all might learn something.

 

[Searcaigh]

I think that's a common theme -- I got in the water with NW Grateful Diver and looked at him and said, "I want me some of that!"

Does Mr TSandM know about this